Press release on the Gridiron Classic

[DUPFLFan]

http://www.pioneer-football.org/article.asp?articleid=78542

"Student-athletes thrive on competition and having a meaningful postseason opportunity is a high priority for our institutions,” said Patty Viverito, PFL Commissioner"

Really?

[Aquaman]

See link below.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/usd/20060517-9999-1s17loccol.html

[89Hen]

That is good news, but I think the NEC and PFL should be included in the I-AA playoffs instead. Anyone else? :p

[aceinthehole]

Here is Monmouth's take on the game:

While pleased that Monmouth again has a postseason to aim for, Monmouth president Paul Gaffney II said the NEC's ultimate goal is receipt of an automatic bid to the NCAA Division I-AA playoffs.

"I think this is a down payment on us making a better case to get the automatic bid, that's what we're doing all this for," Gaffney said.

"It shows we're serious as a conference, willing to spend money, play other teams, and show how good we are."

Gaffney said he hopes a soon-to-be-appointed permanent NEC commissioner will be able to make headway on the issue.

"Stabilizing football, getting an automatic bid, and going up in the (football) RPI is something we've been talking about when we've been interviewing potential candidates," Gaffney said.


http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060517/SPORTS02/605170447/1010

I think Albany officials had similar public comments - its a step in the right direction, but our goal is still the AUTO BID in the I-AA playoffs! :)

[*****]

... "Stabilizing football, getting an automatic bid, and going up in the (football) RPI...I think he meant GPI. :nod:

[*****]

Good job Patty for helping make this happen for your conference!

[DFW HOYA]

Unless the NEC reverts back to a non-scholarship formula, I can't see this "classic" lasting very long. The 30-grant disparity will be apparent.

Does the prospect of a post-season game, however marginal, affect the future plans of the MAAC 5?

[*****]

Unless the NEC reverts back to a non-scholarship formula, I can't see this "classic" lasting very long. The 30-grant disparity will be apparent. Does the prospect of a post-season game, however marginal, affect the future plans of the MAAC 5?They say it's only a two year deal while the NEC ramps up the scholarships.

Don't know much about the MAAC.:(

[GannonFan]

This game can also go away when the winner of the PFL or NEC gets an at-large bid to the playoffs - with the better scheduling coming out of the good teams in the NEC lately, this could happen sooner than later.

[blukeys]

That is good news, but I think the NEC and PFL should be included in the I-AA playoffs instead. Anyone else? :p


Please! You really don't want to get this started again!;) ;)

[aceinthehole]

This game can also go away when the winner of the PFL or NEC gets an at-large bid to the playoffs - with the better scheduling coming out of the good teams in the NEC lately, this could happen sooner than later.

This is just my understanding, but I think that the NEC has reserved the right to send its second place team to the game, IF the the NEC champ is selected for an at-large berth.

Its is still unlikely that a NEC team gets an at-large bid in the next 2 years, but if they do get offered, they will not turn down the playoffs for this "bowl game." That being said, I think there may be some concern (likely from UA) that becasue the game is scheduled for the next 2 years, its puts less "pressure" on the committe to consider an NEC team as an at-large.

I generally agree with what the Monmouth officials said, RIGHT NOW this is the next best thing for the NEC.

[GannonFan]

This is just my understanding, but I think that the NEC has reserved the right to send its second place team to the game, IF the the NEC champ is selected for an at-large berth.

Its is still unlikely that a NEC team gets an at-large bid in the next 2 years, but if they do get offered, they will not turn down the playoffs for this "bowl game." That being said, I think there may be some concern (likely from UA) that becasue the game is scheduled for the next 2 years, its puts less "pressure" on the committe to consider an NEC team as an at-large.

I generally agree with what the Monmouth officials said, RIGHT NOW this is the next best thing for the NEC.

If a NEC or PFL team had a year like Coastal Carolina had last year (assuming they beat Charleston Southern) then they would be in the playoffs - the committee isn't going to pass over a worthy team just because they have another post season outlet to fall back on.

As for the game succeeding with a second place team - as long as that wasn't the norm, then the game would probably continue - if it was always second dibs, then I doubt the game would survive.

[DetroitFlyer]

I am not so certain that the 30 schollys the NEC may now offer will make a huge difference. The PFL already recruits against I-AA scholly and Division II schools. Of course time will tell.... I think today that the top PFL teams are absolutely competitive with the top of Division II teams that offer 36 schollys and generally have lower academic requirements. I have heard that at least one Dayton recruit chose Dayton over Villanova and Georgetown this year, and we landed a transfer from Southern Utah who gave up his scholarship to come to Dayton. Interestingly enough, Dayton did not recruit the kid from Utah, he chose to send tapes to Dayton.... Now, I do think it will make a big difference in the overall GPI of the NEC versus the PFL. If the Saint Francis's, Robert Morris's etc. of the NEC get to 30 schollys, they will be much better than the Valpo's, Butler's and Campbells of the PFL.

[*****]

This game can also go away when the winner of the PFL or NEC gets an at-large bid to the playoffs - with the better scheduling coming out of the good teams in the NEC lately, this could happen sooner than later.2006 OOC games (not including PFL, MAAC, NEC, non-D-I games)

NEC:
6 - PL
4 - A-10
1 - Ivy
1 - Socon
1 - MEAC

Albany-
at Lehigh
Fordham
at Delaware
at Cornell

Central Conn. St.-
at Georgia Southern

Monmouth-
at Fordham
at Colgate

Sacred Heart-
Lafayette

St. Francis (PA)-
at Delaware State

Stony Brook-
Hofstra
at Georgetown
at New Hampshire
at UMass

PFL:
3 - Big South
2 - Gateway
2 - Ivy
1 - Indep
1 - Southland

Davidson-
at VMI

Dayton-
Austin Peay

Drake-
Northern Iowa

Jacksonville-
Charleston Southern
Gardner-Webb
at Southeastern Louisiana

Morehead State-
at Western Illinois

San Diego-
at Yale
at Princeton
-----------------

Looks like it is a regional opponent thing (except for USD)

[Dane96]

I'd have to think a a 1 loss albany team (assuming they beat fordham, cornell, and Delaware) would be in as an at-large.

Not a knock at all on Lehigh (because it is such a strong program), I think a 1 loss UA team (beating Fordham, Cornell, Lehigh) would NOT get in. That A-Ten victory would be important.

That being said, UA WILL NOT beat UD this year...wont come within 10 IMHO. I think we would be more than happy with a 14 pt or less loss. This UA team is going to start some true-frosh...and features 26 red-shirt frosh, some of whom will see significant time. This is a very, very young team.

[*****]

... If the Saint Francis's, Robert Morris's etc. of the NEC get to 30 schollys, they will be much better than the Valpo's, Butler's and Campbells of the PFL.Campbell's not in the PFL... yet.

[*****]

Media: How many Gridiron Classics will there be between the PFL and NEC?

Official: This is a two year deal. The NEC champ hosts the first one and the PFL champ hosts the second.

Media: Is there any way either champ could forego the game and go to the playoffs instead?

Official: No.

Media: Is there a buyout with penalty possibility in that case?

Official: No. The two champs will be playing each other for the next two years.

--------------------
So maybe the best chance for an NEC or PFL team to make the playoffs in the next two years would for a tie in conference champ and one could be selected at-large for the playoffs.

[aceinthehole]

Media: How many Gridiron Classics will there be between the PFL and NEC?

Official: This is a two year deal. The NEC champ hosts the first one and the PFL champ hosts the second.

Media: Is there any way either champ could forego the game and go to the playoffs instead?

Official: No.

Media: Is there a buyout with penalty possibility in that case?

Official: No. The two champs will be playing each other for the next two years.

--------------------
So maybe the best chance for an NEC or PFL team to make the playoffs in the next two years would for a tie in conference champ and one could be selected at-large for the playoffs.

Ralph, very interesting. Who is the Media/Official you quoted?

As I said before, I am for this game because it is likely the only chance for a post season game for an NEC team. However, IF in the unlikely event Stony Brook went 11-0 and had wins vs. UNH and UMass, why they hell would they not play in the playoffs?!

IMO that is the only flaw in this plan. SBU (assuming they win the games) has a playoff caliber schedule. Why should they be punished? I think everyone would agree it would be a nightmare if a playoff quality NEC team was left out of the playoffs just because of this game.

Ralph, you and others have consistently said the NEC team have ALWAYS BEEN eligible for the playoffs as an at-large, but haven't EARNED it to date. Now its appears, that in fact, the NEC is NOT ELIGIBLE for an at-large bid. If so, this is a step back for the NEC, right?

[*****]

... Who is the Media/Official you quoted? ...Now its appears, that in fact, the NEC is NOT ELIGIBLE for an at-large bid. If so, this is a step back for the NEC, right?[/B]The "official" is a composite of the conference commissioners.

Seems the NEC and PFL presidents voted for this game so the champs are going to participate in it. The NEC, PFL and SWAC are all eligible for an at-large bid but it will be unusual if any get one for the same reason... they all voted for a guaranteed postseason champ game.

Is it a "step back?" It's the old one-in-the-hand is better than two-in-the-bush argument. The NEC seems to think that they will ramp up during these next two years to hit the ground running for the playoff chance.

[Dane96]

WILL...is not the same as can't.

I made a phone call to a few contacts and I was told Albany WOULD play in a post-season playoff other than the Gridiron classic, IF INVITED.

Period...end of story.

On a more "let's use some commonsense theory", even if they were contractually bound NOT to play in the game, dont you thing Patty and the incoming NEC AD would work something out, called a modification of an existing clause, if and when an invite came about. A playoff game involving either league, in the IAA playoffs, is good FOR BOTH LEAGUES, for possible future invites.

[*****]

WILL...is not the same as can't... if they were contractually bound NOT to play in the game, dont you thing Patty and the incoming NEC AD would work something out, called a modification of an existing clause, if and when an invite came about...As it stands now, will means will. Read the NCAA bylaw... they are bound. Could they modify it? Sure but it is very unlikely they could do it right after selection Sunday.

[DUPFLFan]

So maybe the best chance for an NEC or PFL team to make the playoffs in the next two years would for a tie in conference champ and one could be selected at-large for the playoffs.

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx
xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[*****]

xlolxDon't laugh... the same goes for Jackson State etc. from the SWAC.

[McTailGator]

That is good news, but I think the NEC and PFL should be included in the I-AA playoffs instead. Anyone else? :p

Negative...

We need minimum standards, and they don't offer enough scholarships to meet any standard.

I know it's rough on you non-scholy folks ego's but our sand box is a tough one to live in. Suggest you consider Division III in football, or play at the club level.

[DUPFLFan]

Ralph - any comments to McTailGator?

[*****]

Ralph - any comments to McTailGator?DUPFLFan, any comments to McTailGator?

[blukeys]

I'd have to think a a 1 loss albany team (assuming they beat fordham, cornell, and Delaware) would be in as an at-large.

Not a knock at all on Lehigh (because it is such a strong program), I think a 1 loss UA team (beating Fordham, Cornell, Lehigh) would NOT get in. That A-Ten victory would be important.

That being said, UA WILL NOT beat UD this year...wont come within 10 IMHO. I think we would be more than happy with a 14 pt or less loss. This UA team is going to start some true-frosh...and features 26 red-shirt frosh, some of whom will see significant time. This is a very, very young team.

Delaware's team is also very Young.

[McTailGator]

Ralph - any comments to McTailGator?

Yea, go ahead comment.

That's what I did. I spoke my mind and it is how I feel. Right or Wrong. It's MY opinion...

AND, I will go out on a limb and say it's probably how the majority of the Historical Perennial Top 25 fans feel as well. Only I don't see then need to bite my tonge like so many of them feel the need to.

[blukeys]

Yea, go ahead comment.

That's what I did. I spoke my mind and it is how I feel. Right or Wrong. It's MY opinion...

AND, I will go out on a limb and say it's probably how the majority of the Historical Perennial Top 25 fans feel as well. Only I don't see then need to bite my tonge like so many of them feel the need to.

I don't know if I am an Historical Perennial top 25 fan or not. (I know that I am an old F*rt who attended my first UD game in 1960 when this guy named Eisenhower was president)

But the non-scolly conferences do not deserve auto bids. I do not know if a scolly (or equivalency) minimum should be established but to date no one has ever made a convincing case that a single team from the PFL, MAAC or NEC was more deserving of a playoff berth over the teams that were in it. The arguments change over time and at times within posts.

By the way if I ever get to that magical 7,000 post level, I might like to use the "Historical Perennial top 25 fan" in my thing next to my name if that is ok with the originator. Mr. Mctailgator.

[UAalum72]

but our sand box is a tough one to live in. Suggest you consider Division III in football, or play at the club level.
The NCAA will not allow Divison I universities to play varsity football in any other sandbox. You should learn to play well with the others who are there.

The NEC and PFL follow every rule in the book. Direct your displeasure to the NCAA.

[*****]

The NCAA will not allow Divison I universities to play varsity football in any other sandbox. You should learn to play well with the others who are there.
The NEC and PFL follow every rule in the book. Direct your displeasure to the NCAA.Thanks UAalum72. :hurray:

McTG was talking about "minimum standards" and D-III, not AQs...

[downbythebeach]

G.C. is def a good idea. To me being a MM fan, its not really that big of a deal if a MM team makes the playoffs. Maybe thats because I have no idea the excitement that this brings, but I can imagine that if my school played a "perennial top 25 school" like McNeese in the playoffs it wouldn't be that big of a deal to the average student. I can hear people saying "McWho" and "Is that where the movie The Waterboy was filmed?" Well maybe its just me?

[*****]

... I can imagine that if my school played a "perennial top 25 school" like McNeese in the playoffs it wouldn't be that big of a deal to the average student. I can hear people saying "McWho" and "Is that where the movie The Waterboy was filmed?" Well maybe its just me?Yeah, it's just you. :) There's only one "Mc" in the division that your school plays football.

[UAalum72]

Ralph - any comments to McTailGator?
Ralph has already commented on this opinion:04-10-2006, 10:42 PM ralph (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/member.php?u=2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UAalum72
Come on ralph, how many times has it been posted that the 'mid-majors' are "Division III in disguise", "are only in I-AA because of NCAA rules", "should drop down to Division III if they won't ramp up their scholarships". Those aren't rips?

Look who wrote those posts. :cool: Most likely xidiotx

Those are few and far between and I don't think that most informed folks feel that way.

[DFW HOYA]

I do not know if a scolly (or equivalency) minimum should be established but to date no one has ever made a convincing case that a single team from the PFL, MAAC or NEC was more deserving of a playoff berth over the teams that were in it.

Nomination: the 2000 Duquesne Dukes.

They opened the season at VMI and pounded the Keydets 57-31. Next, they defeated Lafayette and Georgetown, lost at Bucknell, then proceeded to win its seven MAAC conference games by an average of 28 points a game. At 10-1, they wouldn't have won the I-AA title but they were as worthy as Portland State or Eastern Illinois that year.

[McTailGator]

The NCAA will not allow Divison I universities to play varsity football in any other sandbox. You should learn to play well with the others who are there.

The NEC and PFL follow every rule in the book. Direct your displeasure to the NCAA.


I know the rules, and it may be in the works...

Every school should be allowed to play at what ever they wish, but minimum standards maintain excellence.

Schools that don't take football as seriously as others should be allowed more options. But the Division I Playoffs need to stay at 16 teams and be kept difficult to acheive. This makes it more rewarding, and valued.

[McTailGator]

By the way if I ever get to that magical 7,000 post level, I might like to use the "Historical Perennial top 25 fan" in my thing next to my name if that is ok with the originator. Mr. Mctailgator.


You have my blessing.:bow:

[DFW HOYA]

Schools that don't take football as seriously as others should be allowed more options. But the Division I Playoffs need to stay at 16 teams and be kept difficult to acheive. This makes it more rewarding, and valued.

How do you judge taking football "seriously"? Most* PL teams have a football budget that is larger than Sun Belt schools, yet there are those on this board who, given their druthers, would take a bid away from the PL so that the OVC or the Socon could get an extra bid.

Schools where tuition is seven or eight times higher than a state university have a commitment to football too. They may not have the built-in fan base or the publicly funded stadium, but they compete. Almost all of these schools would push for 63 if it was economically feasible to do so.

How many I-AA powers would still be funding 63 scholarships if the average year of attendance ran $46,000?

[blukeys]

Nomination: the 2000 Duquesne Dukes.

They opened the season at VMI and pounded the Keydets 57-31. Next, they defeated Lafayette and Georgetown, lost at Bucknell, then proceeded to win its seven MAAC conference games by an average of 28 points a game. At 10-1, they wouldn't have won the I-AA title but they were as worthy as Portland State or Eastern Illinois that year.

Well the goal of picking teams for the playoffs is to win the title and not to pick a team that would not lose as bad as someone else. The criteria should be can the team be one of the teams that could win a National title which you admit Duquesne could not do.

VMI and Georgetown were not good teams. Lafayette was still wondering in the wilderness and not the team of '04 and '05.

They lost at Bucknell? Did Bucknell make the playoffs? Did they come close? Did they win the PL???????????

I saw the Portland State 2000 team and they were terrible and lost by 30+ in the playoffs and forever poisoned UD fans to the idea that a decent Big Sky team exists outside of Montana. I have been told that they (PSU) were better earlier in the year but that was not evident the Saturday after Thanksgiving. The NCAA made a mistake in picking PSU in 2000. I don't think sending Duquesne to Newark for the same butt kicking would have improved matters.

Your argument for Duquesne 2000 has already been taken up by Colgate 13 who destroyed their admittance last year at about this time.

I am never persuaded that a conference deserves an auto bid based on the argument that "one of our teams could lose as well in the opening round of the playoffs as someone else" !!!:nod:

[DFW HOYA]

I am never persuaded that a conference deserves an auto bid based on the argument that "one of our teams could lose as well in the opening round of the playoffs as someone else" !!!:nod:

By that logic, most I-AA conferences should not have an automatic bid to the NCAA men's basketball tournament. Would you suggest this as well?

Of course not. Yet this same "you're not as worthy as us" argument effectively disenfranchises a third of the subdivision. If ten I-AA level conferences were told they were ineligible for the men's basketball tournament because they could never compete, what would be the response on this board?

My suggestion: a 24 team playoff, with eight first round byes for the best eight teams regardless of autobids, then seed everyone else. Every conference champion (a conference defined as having more than seven schools) would be eligible to send a team.

We'll never know if Duquesne in 2000 would have won a NCAA game. But if you had said that Colgate would reach the I-AA finals, how many would have beleived that, either?

Without some opportunity for schools which aren't in the "right" conferences, there is little or no hope for building a strong and growing I-AA.

[blukeys]

How do you judge taking football "seriously"? Most* PL teams have a football budget that is larger than Sun Belt schools, yet there are those on this board who, given their druthers, would take a bid away from the PL so that the OVC or the Socon could get an extra bid.

Schools where tuition is seven or eight times higher than a state university have a commitment to football too. They may not have the built-in fan base or the publicly funded stadium, but they compete. Almost all of these schools would push for 63 if it was economically feasible to do so.

How many I-AA powers would still be funding 63 scholarships if the average year of attendance ran $46,000?

This issue has been raised before and that is "Does it really cost any school $46.000 to provide a scholarship for ANY athlete"

I say no!!!

The accounting for these dollars rests on a reality that does not exist and that is that providing a space for an athletic scholarship student a school REJECTS a non scholarship full boat paying student.

Yeah Right. A school will turn down hard cash for a student who doesn't have to pay his way. Colleges don't operate this way.:nod: :nod:

The facts are that a professor gets paid the same if he teaches 15 students or 16 students. The college does pay more for food if a student is on scholarship although it is not $46,000. The same occurs for housing although some schools have surplus housing. (perhaps not Georgetown)

I for one do not believe that any of the I-AA schools REJECT full boat paying students for those on athletic scholarship. I think both are accepted.

The incremental costs of scholarhip athletes. which include the wholesale costs of books, the wholesale cost of food, and incremental housing costs are MUCH lower than what is stated on the Balance Sheet.

Accountants will tell you there are costs (unreal) and then out of pocket expenses (REAL)

Athletic scholarhip costs for Georgetown are no way near the actual out of pocket expense the school pays.

Do you really think you would even HAVE a football team if it really cost the school $46,000 / player?????????????:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[DFW HOYA]

The accounting for these dollars rests on a reality that does not exist and that is that providing a space for an athletic scholarship student a school REJECTS a non scholarship full boat paying student. Yeah Right. A school will turn down hard cash for a student who doesn't have to pay his way. Colleges don't operate this way...I for one do not believe that any of the I-AA schools REJECT full boat paying students for those on athletic scholarship. I think both are accepted.

Actually, they do. Georgetown, like the Ivies, accepts its students "need blind"--that is, they accept students without regard for the ability to pay. Lots of "full fare" kids get left behind in the admissions process at these schools. Realize that Ivy schools accept 10-20% of their applicants and Georgetown is not far behind at 21%, so a lot of people on both sides of the financial divide simply don't get in. These schools are not filling the class just with those who can afford the bill, and a big chunk of money subsidizes what is called "full need" aid--if accepted, Georgetown is committed to 100% of the student's need, whether that's $1 of need or the full amount.

Putting Ivy athletes aside, the cost of a scholarship athlete at Georgetown is essentially the "full fare" because the school's enrollment numbers are fixed--it is not a marginal cost to add a scholarship athlete above and beyond the cost of enrollment.

You asked: "Do you really think you would even HAVE a football team if it really cost the school $46,000 / player?" That's assuming a school is offering full scholarships to each player. Because of the cost/enrollment dynamic, Georgetown offers fewer full scholarships than every other Big East school and far fewer equivalency grants than other PL football schools, meaning most Georgetown athletes are paying a portion of their cost of education to study there and are not on the proverbial full ride.

[blukeys]

Actually, they do. Georgetown, like the Ivies, accepts its students "need blind"--that is, they accept students without regard for the ability to pay. Lots of "full fare" kids get left behind in the admissions process at these schools. Realize that Ivy schools accept 10-20% of their applicants and Georgetown is not far behind at 21%, so a lot of people on both sides of the financial divide simply don't get in. These schools are not filling the class just with those who can afford the bill, and a big chunk of money subsidizes what is called "full need" aid--if accepted, Georgetown is committed to 100% of the student's need, whether that's $1 of need or the full amount.

Putting Ivy athletes aside, the cost of a scholarship athlete at Georgetown is essentially the "full fare" because the school's enrollment numbers are fixed--it is not a marginal cost to add a scholarship athlete above and beyond the cost of enrollment.

You asked: "Do you really think you would even HAVE a football team if it really cost the school $46,000 / player?" That's assuming a school is offering full scholarships to each player. Because of the cost/enrollment dynamic, Georgetown offers fewer full scholarships than every other Big East school and far fewer equivalency grants than other PL football schools, meaning most Georgetown athletes are paying a portion of their cost of education to study there and are not on the proverbial full ride.

I guess I just flat out don't believe you. To do so would mean that there is a fixed number of incoming students and that any number above that number would be rejected.

I don't believe that but in the case of Georgetown let's say I am wrong. In the case of the Georgetown Men's BASKETBALL team, what full time full paying students were rejected for the Basketball team ???????????????????
Inquiring minds want to know!!!!!!!!!!

I truly don't believe that $46,000 is the out of pocket expense of GU for every football player otherwise GU would have dumped football long ago.

If GU is only offering 20 football equivalences they see it as a bargain. Have you ever priced advertising in the D.C/ Baltimore area????

[Dane96]

As it stands now, will means will. Read the NCAA bylaw... they are bound. Could they modify it? Sure but it is very unlikely they could do it right after selection Sunday.


What bylaw are you referring to?!? Enlighten me because, to be frank, I am completely unaware of any bylaw, which in turn, could keep these two schools from bailing on their contract and sending the champ of one division to a playoff if invited.

THE MAAC/NEC game allowed for it...

This is an NCAA sanctioned game, however contractual terms are not governed by the NCAA in the sense that if one league wants to bail on an external contract, the NCAA can say no! The NCAA IS NOT funding this game...they are just approving it.

I am not busting your balls...I am highly curious because in my years of working with contracts...I have never heard of such a thing. THE NCAA IS NOT A SIGNATORY TO THE CONTRACT...

[DUPFLFan]

DUPFLFan, any comments to McTailGator?

Just thought that you would like to tell him how wrong he is, since you have told me and other PFL supporters that scholarships play no part - that it is the strength of schedule that keeps the PFL out of the playoffs.

Seems that many of our posters share McTailGator's theory that because the PFL doesn't give scholarships that they are not really Division 1

Even though you have repeatedly said that the PFL is Division 1.

I guess that because you have no comment about his post, that you don't think that he is wrong. :bang:

[*****]

... Even though you have repeatedly said that the PFL is Division 1. I guess that because you have no comment about his post, that you don't think that he is wrong.read #34 in this thread... besides, I don't use arabic numbers for NCAA divisions. :p

[*****]

... I am not busting your balls...Read post #17 in this thread then.

[Dane96]

Ok...again...that was a conversation you had awhile ago. My sources...are from yesterday.

This is basic contract law...and there IS NO NCAA regulation governing it whatsover...fact.

The two contracting parties, the NEC and PFL can modify their arrangement, post contract formation, to allow a team to play in the playoffs because IT WILL benefit both leagues.

You stated, for a fact, the NCAA bylaws preclude this...again...where is that LAW?!?! It certainly can not be found in post 17.

[*****]

Ok...again...that was a conversation you had awhile ago...Wrong. You're doing it again.

I was referring to 17.11.5.2 as setting the game, not the contract. PM me if you want to discuss this further.

[Dane96]

Wrong. You're doing it again.

I was referring to 17.11.5.2 as setting the game, not the contract. PM me if you want to discuss this further.

I AM DOING IT AGAIN?! Are your referring to me calling you out on poor information? YEP...I am doing it again. I am guilty...but not without factual basis to help!!!

No...I PM'd you today to discuss a wee bit further...but I think I will reply to this particular post in public. Here ya go Ralph. First off, the bylaw you refer to EXLCLUDES the GC from the maximum number of football contests. Hence, the GC could A) allow one of the teams NOT to play in the GC and send them to the NCAA's if invited, and replace them with another team from the conference which wont send its champ to the GC. Further, it can be argued, the bylaw allows the two conferences, via the bolded loophole, to send a champ to the NCAA's (logistically impossible, however). Why can these be argued? Because the conference specfically discusses a 12-team tourney and then it discusses the bolded tourney, without precluding two conferences from doing so!

Additionally, it allows for a bowl game...without additional language precluding that bowl team from heading to the NCAA's...or forcing a team who is contracted to play in the Bowl Game from opting out of the bowl game for an NCAA bid.

So do me a favor...and get your stuff together...ok. And for the record...YOU REFERRED TO POST 17...clearly...not bylaw 17...BUT NICE TRY!

Again...the conferences, the NEC and PFL, are free to take a team out of the GC and put them in the NCAA if invited. This is a contract b/w two parties...and not the NCAA.



17.11.5.2 Annual Exemptions
The maximum number of football contests shall exclude the following (see Figure 17-13):
(a) Spring Game. One contest at the conclusion of the spring practice period [see Bylaw 17.11.4-(a)], provided the contest is against a team composed of bona fide alumni or students or both; (Revised: 1/10/90)
(b) Heritage Bowl. Participation in the Heritage Bowl held between representatives of the Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference and the Southwestern Athletic Conference, which shall meet the reporting requirements set forth in Bylaw 30.9 in order to be exempt; (Adopted: 1/10/91, Revised: 1/10/92)
(c) Twelve-Member Conference Championship Game. A conference championship game between division champions of a member conference of 12 or more institutions that is divided into two divisions (of six or more institutions each), each of which conducts round-robin, regular-season competition among the members of that division;
(d) Division I-AA Conference Tournament. I-AA In Division I-AA, a conference-sponsored, season-ending postseason tournament (i.e., one between teams that are not identified until the end of the preceding regular season), not to exceed one contest for any member institution. This provision does not preclude a Division I-AA institution from participating in a conference-sponsored, season-ending postseason tournament and additional postseason football opportunities (e.g., NCAA Championship, Heritage Bowl) during the same season;
(e) Bowl Games. One postseason game approved by the Championships/Competition Cabinet (see 30.9);
(f) NCAA Championships. Games played in the NCAA Division I-AA Football Championship;
(g) NCAA Championship Play-In Competition. Competition in play-in contests conducted before NCAA championships;
(h) NAIA Championships. Games played in the National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics (NAIA) football championship;
(i) ECAC Football Classic. Participation in the ECAC Football Classic held between representatives from the Northeast Conference and the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference. (Adopted: 4/25/02)
(j) Foreign Tour. The football games played on a foreign tour, provided the tour occurs only once in a four-year period and is conducted by the member institution in accordance with the procedures set forth in Bylaw 30.7 (see Bylaw 17.31);
(k) Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto Rico. Any football games played in Hawaii, Alaska or Puerto Rico, respectively, either against or under the sponsorship of an active member institution located in Hawaii, Alaska or Puerto Rico, by a Division I member institution located outside the area in question; and
(l) Celebrity Sports Activity. Competition involving a limit of two student-athletes from a member institution's football team who participate in local celebrity football activities conducted for the purpose of raising funds for charitable organizations, provided:
(1) The student-athletes do not miss classes as a result of the participation;
(2) The involvement of the student-athletes has the approval of the institution's athletics director; and
(3) The activity takes place within a 30-mile radius of the institution's main campus.

[*****]

... The two contracting parties, the NEC and PFL can modify their arrangement, post contract formation, to allow a team to play in the playoffs...Like I said already in this thread, sure they could.

[*****]

... me calling you out on poor information? YEP...I am doing it again... get your stuff together...Understand this: The NCAA only allows for one post-season event for a team whether that be the playoffs, a bowl/champ game, etc.

The GC is a champ/bowl game specified in the bylaw I provided you and the champs of the PFL and NEC will play in the game. Post #17 in this thread is my proof that this will happen.

You can disagree with me all you want but please do not insult me further. :nono:

[Dane96]

Like I said already in this thread, sure they could.

HERE IS YOUR QUOTE:

"As it stands now, will means will. Read the NCAA bylaw... they are bound. Could they modify it? Sure but it is very unlikely they could do it right after selection Sunday."

You:

A) Referred me to Post 17, then stating you meant bylaw 17.

B) Referred to an NCAA bylaw (which after questioned on it produced one that destroys your argument and offers NOTHING but support for ours.

C) STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION PRECIPITATING THIS ARGUMENT: WHERE, as you stated above, ARE THE CONFERENCES BOUND within the language of the NCAA bylaws, as you question it.

Two things regarding C:

One...even under the bylaws, the winner of the GC (let's say they are 11-1 with UA's schedule) is not BARRED from excepting an invite. Logistically, probably impossible (the GC and first round MIGHT coincide on the same day). Second, if the GC and the first round coincided...that means the GC teams would be picked (based on who finishes in first) prior to the first round game and either before or on the same day as selection sunday, the laws again, contrary to your statement, do NOT tell the teams they cannot opt out.

Finally, your argument WOULD hold water if you had read the rules first. IF, the PFL team happens to be the one with the invite, IT COULD NOT PLAY IN THE BOWL GAME, THEIR OWN CONFERENCE TOURNEY, and THE NCAA TOURNEY if they exceeded the 12 game limit. Only then, would they be precluded.

The NEC, on the other hand, does not have a conference tournament (it was talked about if the GC didnt come about) and thus will be UNDER the exempt number. THIS MY FRIEND...is why they agreed to this game. There is NOTHING holding back the NEC from sending a team to the tourney if invited other than possible financial penalties the PFL could claim, which of course they would not because a limited scholly team in the playoff would benefit them (Limited scholly team in playoffs from NEC wins a first round game (just an example fellas...), PFL plays and beats NEC NO. 2 in a great game, and the NEC NO. 2 finished close to the NEC 1. It would be an indicator that the gap is closing. The following year the PFL dumps the in season championsip, or finds an exemption, and enables a team from their league to get a possible invite.)

Fact is...the NEC is more than capable of legally sending a team to the NCAA's whether or not they play in this bowl game. The only obstacle they have...is an invite.

[Dane96]

Understand this: The NCAA only allows for one post-season event for a team whether that be the playoffs, a bowl/champ game, etc.

The GC is a champ/bowl game specified in the bylaw I provided you and the champs of the PFL and NEC will play in the game. Post #17 in this thread is my proof that this will happen.

You can disagree with me all you want but please do not insult me further. :nono:


I suggest you stop referring to POST 17...and refer to BYLAW 17. You point out EXACTLY where it says what you suggest...and I will eat crow.

[Dane96]

R.I.F.- READING IS FUNDAMENTAL

Here is NCAA BYLAW 17.11.5.2:

(d) Division I-AA Conference Tournament. I-AA In Division I-AA, a conference-sponsored, season-ending postseason tournament (i.e., one between teams that are not identified until the end of the preceding regular season), not to exceed one contest for any member institution. This provision does not preclude a Division I-AA institution from participating in a conference-sponsored, season-ending postseason tournament and additional postseason football opportunities (e.g., NCAA Championship, Heritage Bowl) during the same season;

EXACTLY OPPOSING YOUR STATEMENT REGARDING POSSIBLE NEC INCLUSION!

[*****]

... A) Referred me to Post 17, then stating you meant bylaw 17.
B) Referred to an NCAA bylaw (which after questioned on it produced one that destroys your argument and offers NOTHING but support for ours.
C) STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION PRECIPITATING THIS ARGUMENT: WHERE, as you stated above, ARE THE CONFERENCES BOUND within the language of the NCAA bylaws

Two things regarding C:
One...even under the bylaws, the winner of the GC ... is not BARRED from excepting an invite...
Second, if the GC and the first round coincided...that means the GC teams would be picked (based on who finishes in first) prior to the first round game and either before or on the same day as selection sunday, the laws again, contrary to your statement, do NOT tell the teams they cannot opt out...
Finally, your argument WOULD hold water if you had read the rules first. IF, the PFL team happens to be the one with the invite, IT COULD NOT PLAY IN THE BOWL GAME, THEIR OWN CONFERENCE TOURNEY, and THE NCAA TOURNEY if they exceeded the 12 game limit. Only then, would they be precluded...
There is NOTHING holding back the NEC from sending a team to the tourney if invited other than possible financial penalties the PFL could claim...A. No, I meant post #17 where it says that the champs will play each other without exception.
B. Bylaw 17.11.5.2 (now amended) sets the game as a post-season event.
C. I was referring to 17.11.5.2 as setting the game, not the contract.
1. A team is only allowed one post-season event.
2. See post #17.
Finally, the PFL does not have a conference tourney.

:read:

[Dane96]

The following are the ONLY restrictions in the bylaw. Further, bylaw 30.9, regarding licensing of bowl games as referred to in 17.11.5.2, does not support your argument.

Notice how the below specifically states a MEAC/SWAC team CAN go to the playoffs if selected, however they CAN not participate in the Bowl Game.

Two things of note:

It is what I have been saying regarding the GC...and furthermore...the LACK of a bylaw specifiying the GC champ cant play in the playoffs if invited SUPPORTS the argument that IT CAN participate, specifically because the NCAA took the time to indicate the Heritage Bowl/ECAC game particpants could not; IF the NCAA intended the GC to come under the same guidelines, arguably they would have put it in writing.


17.11.4 End of Playing Season
17.11.4.1 ECAC Football Classic Restrictions I-AA
All members of the Mid-Eastern and Southwestern Athletic Conferences shall participate in the Division I-AA Football Championship, if eligible and selected for participation, and members of those conferences that participate in the Division I-AA Football Championship also shall not participate in the ECAC Football Classic Restrictions during the same year. The ECAC Football Classic may be conducted on the same weekend as the Division I-AA Football Championship, provided there is no conflict in the time of the contests. (Adopted: 4/25/02)

17.11.4.1 ECAC Football Classic Restrictions
17.11.4.2 Heritage Bowl Restrictions I-AA
All members of the Mid-Eastern and Southwestern Athletic Conferences shall participate in the Division I-AA Football Championship, if eligible and selected for participation, and members of those conferences that participate in the Division I-AA Football Championship also shall not participate in the Heritage Bowl during the same year. The Heritage Bowl may be conducted on the same weekend as the Division I-AA Football Championship, provided there is no conflict in the time of the contests. (Adopted: 1/16/93; Revised: 8/5/99)

[*****]

R.I.F.- READING IS FUNDAMENTAL
Here is NCAA BYLAW 17.11.5.2...Stop insulting me now or take your stuff to the smack board.

Maybe you are misunderstanding what I wrote or the rule, or both. Conferences can schedule a champ game on the last week of the regular season then go to the playoffs, etc. As it has been explained to me by the NCAA, they cannot play the max games, then play a champ game, then go to the playoffs.

[Dane96]

A. No, I meant post #17 where it says that the champs will play each other without exception.
B. Bylaw 17.11.5.2 (now amended) sets the game as a post-season event.
C. I was referring to 17.11.5.2 as setting the game, not the contract.
1. A team is only allowed one post-season event.
2. See post #17.
Finally, the PFL does not have a conference tourney.

:read:

1. Ummm..yeah..that is from your source....I gave an updated source. People say men didnt land on the moon...some say they did. Next argument

2. 17.11.5.2- exactly how does it help your argument. I have posted the current rules.

3. Again..a team is not limited to one post season event...read the rules again.

4. The PFL doesnt have a post season championship?
Huh....ok...your research is starting to go S. of the Border! Here ya go Ralph:

http://www.pioneer-football.org/article.asp?articleid=73813

The PFL South plays the PFL North Champ.

But thanks for playing.

[Dane96]

Stop insulting me now or take your stuff to the smack board.

Maybe you are misunderstanding what I wrote or the rule, or both. Conferences can schedule a champ game on the last week of the regular season then go to the playoffs, etc. As it has been explained to me by the NCAA, they cannot play the max games, then play a champ game, then go to the playoffs.


It ain't smack..when you are rebutting facts. And no Ralph...that IS NOT WHAT YOU SAID! In fact, you are backtracking...yet again.

But dont worry...I am done with you on this topic.

[DUPFLFan]

Dane - the PFL is only one conference now with Austin Peay leaving. The PFL Championship game is no longer being played.

[*****]

... 17.11.4.1 ... members of those conferences that participate in the Division I-AA Football Championship also shall not participate in the ECAC Football Classic Restrictions during the same year...
17.11.4.2 ... members of those conferences that participate in the Division I-AA Football Championship also shall not participate in the Heritage Bowl during the same year...Thank you, that's exactly what I said. :nod: :hurray:

[*****]

It ain't smack..when you are rebutting facts. And no Ralph...that IS NOT WHAT YOU SAID! In fact, you are backtracking...yet again. But dont worry...I am done with you on this topic.You are done all right. :(

We agree that:
- The GC is a postseason event
- The champs of the PFL and NEC are scheduled to play in it
- The participants in it can't also play in the playoffs

We disagree that:
- The champs of the PFL and NEC must play in it
I believe what the commissioners told me, and as I PM'd you that included as recently as yesterday that they must play in it. You believe what your friend told you that they don't. End of story.

[Dane96]

Dane - the PFL is only one conference now with Austin Peay leaving. The PFL Championship game is no longer being played.

Yes, I know that...it was the POINT...however...that the game was played. I wanted to point that out..that is all. My argument was about the NEC....who has never had a playoff game...opposed to the PFL that did. The argument was an "opposite end of the spectrum argument" as, in....if the PFL did have the game...here is what WOULD happen. Ralph made statments on what COULD DEFINATELY NOT OCCUR...opposed to what COULD occur.

When r you guys returning that Drake game to us...it was such a good game a few years back...thrilling OT'er.

[Dane96]

You are done all right.

WhoaK Ralphie pooh.

[*****]

WhoaK Ralphie pooh.You forgot your obligatory "YOU ARE BIASED AGAINST THE MID-MAJORS!!!!" xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx : smh :

[DUPFLFan]

I wish I knew.

I have no control over scheduling, otherwise a trip to upstate New York in the fall would be on my must do list...

How about you win your conference and we will win ours - then we can meet in Albany?:hurray:

[Dane96]

I hear that....

Incidently, we have two kids (studs) on our hoops team from your neck of the woods (one of their sisters was the Big Ten player of the year at IOWA).

When they came to UA they stated one of the reasons was because it reminded them of home!

[DUPFLFan]

Dane - that is the first time I have heard upstate New York compared to Iowa... xlolx xlolx xlolx

[DetroitFlyer]

I'm hoping that my Flyers win the PFL! I am very curious to see how we might fare against a top NEC team. I think we would do well. The PFL should be very interesting this year with the round robin format. I firmly believe that San Diego, Drake, Morehead State and Dayton will be neck and neck for the title. Davidson and Jacksonville are poised to be spoilers and I even expect Butler and Valpo to be improved. Man, I cannot wait for football season to start again. For anyone interested, I have also heard that Dayton has a verbal agreement with Fordham for a home and home starting next season!

[blukeys]

You are done all right. :(

We agree that:
- The GC is a postseason event
- The champs of the PFL and NEC are scheduled to play in it
- The participants in it can't also play in the playoffs

We disagree that:
- The champs of the PFL and NEC must play in it
I believe what the commissioners told me, and as I PM'd you that included as recently as yesterday that they must play in it. You believe what your friend told you that they don't. End of story.

I guess I will have to believe what I actually heard on the WAVES show that had the PFL And Gateway Commissioner. She specifically said that the deal precluded the PFL champ from participating in the playoffs in order to play in this game. One can believe what you want or your own ears the interview is on the archives.

The NEC is another matter.

[*****]

... She specifically said that the deal precluded the PFL champ from participating in the playoffs in order to play in this game. One can believe what you want or your own ears the interview is on the archives. The NEC is another matter.She, a signatory on the contract and the person who wrote the NCAA bylaw language said the champs would be playing each other without exception.

[*****]

I want to add how much I appreciate how protective the PFL is of their non-schollie status. They are not like any other conference in I-AA in that respect. Yet they seem to produce consistent powerful teams every year without need-based aid or scholarships. Cool for non-schollie I-AA. Same for the MAAC! bye

[blukeys]

She, a signatory on the contract and the person who wrote the NCAA bylaw language said the champs would be playing each other without exception.

So does this mean a postponement of the Mid - Major playoff autobid arguement for 2 years???????????


I think NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: