W&M can stay "Tribe", but feathers must go.

[Tribe4SF]

NCAA has finally ruled on W&M's use of Tribe nickname and related imagery. A split decision, that W&M will appeal. College leadership has commented on the absurdity of outlawing our feathers, while condoning Florida State's use of war paint, spears, and violent images. They also commented that it's understandable why Congress is considering taking the issue out of the NCAA's hands.

http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/9443421

[DFW HOYA]

Congress will eventually move on this. The NCAA's acceptance of Floroida State really hurts its P.C. case on this one.

[lucchesicourt]

What is the matter with the NCAA? First, the term tribe does NOT relate to any partucular group of humans. It is simply a term to categorize a group of people such as herd would be for a group of nbison. See the Definition:

Main Entry: tribe
Pronunciation: 'trIb
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin tribus, a division of the Roman people, tribe
1 a : a social group comprising numerous families, clans, or generations together with slaves, dependents, or adopted strangers b : a political division of the Roman people orig. representing one of the three original tribes of ancient Rome c : PHYLE
2 : a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest
3 : a category of taxonomic classification ranking below a subfamily; also : a natural group irrespective of taxonomic rank

Now the feather stuff- It is really no big deal. Let's face it. American Indians were not the only group of people to use feathers in their culture. They have been used in Africa, the Pacific Islands, and I'll bet many more areas of the world.
Tribe and feathers do not correspond to any particular group of humans, this tribe could be from anywhere in the world. Now teams with names like Seminoles, there can be no missing with who it refers too. Would anyone consider it a dishonor to have something named after them? For instance, the Baby Ruth candy bar is that an honor or a slap on Babe Ruth? If you ask the NCAA it would be considered a dishonor, but most Americans see having something named after them as a tribute to them or their society.
Frank Sinatra Drive, Bob Hope (boulevard?), Yawkey Way, etc. Are any of these a dishonor?

[Husky Alum]

For instance, the Baby Ruth candy bar is that an honor or a slap on Babe Ruth? If you ask the NCAA it would be considered a dishonor, but most Americans see having something named after them as a tribute to them or their society.
Frank Sinatra Drive, Bob Hope (boulevard?), Yawkey Way, etc. Are any of these a dishonor?

Small problem, the Baby Ruth candy bar wasn't named after the baseball player.

From wikipedia...
Although the name of the candy bar sounds nearly identical to the name of the famous baseball player, Babe Ruth, the Curtiss Candy Company has traditionally claimed that it was named after President Grover Cleveland's daughter, Ruth Cleveland.

Tom Yawkey was such a biggot, there are many minorities in Boston who think it's a real bad idea to honor the man who fostered racism in the city. The Sox were the last MLB team to integrate in 1959, about 12 years after Jackie Robinson.

In fact, legend goes the Sox could have had both Willie Mays and Jackie Robinson but Yawkey shouted them off of the field at Fenway during tryouts in the 1940s.

[youwouldno]

The NCAA is totally insane. Congress should slap them down pronto, because they're out of control.

[Kill'em]

Really dumb move by the NCAA and proved the double standard the NCAA allows regarding a high-profile program.:nonono2:

[Ivytalk]

Gee, no feathers, but may I keep my loincloth?:rolleyes:

The NCAA's incompetence will unfortunately pave they way for government involvement. Will the Atlanta Braves and the Cleveland Indians be the next to go? Could Sonny and Cher re-record "Cherokee People" these days without having it banned as racist? (I admit it was a crappy song, but you get my point.)

[carney2]

You didn't provide the entire press release. Further along it is stated that the NCAA has changed its logo. Henceforth it will be the south end of a north-bound horse.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Outrageous. Why pick on W&M? Because they don't think they will fight back, unlike Florida State.

[Green Cookie Monster]

Is America turning into France? Aghast!

[henfan]

Could Sonny and Cher re-record "Cherokee People" these days without having it banned as racist? (I admit it was a crappy song, but you get my point.)

If they could raise the late mayor from the dead to turn a buck, I'm sure they'd find a way. But wait, there's still hope. "Cherokee People" was a Paul Revere and the Raiders' song and was never recorded by Sonny & Cher. (You're probably thinking of the Cher single "Half Breed". Ah, another '70's lowlight!) I'd imagine the NCAA's lawyers would take issue with the Raiders name, as well as the native American imagery used in that ditty.

Barring a favorable ruling, W&M really ought to consider just changing their nickname to a sterile moniker approved by the NCAA and be done with the whole sordid mess. The College already isn't the Indians, so holding on to the name Tribe without the traditional feather logo seems pointless. If the original intent was to paying homage to the native peoples living in the area and those who attended the College, then the nickname has been rendered meaningless. This is re-damn-diculous.

[greenG]

Outrageous. Why pick on W&M? Because they don't think they will fight back, unlike Florida State.

W&M is appealing the decision. With a well regarded law school and a wealthy, influential alumni I don't think W&M will be featherless for long.

[colgate13]

Is America turning into France? Aghast!

Hey, leave the new Lehigh president out of this! :p

[foghorn]

Since W&M alums are so endeared with "The College" moniker when referring to their beloved alma mater, why not just change its football nickname to 'The College'? They can put little cross-diplomas on their helmets to set in the fear factor.
I'm all for the Native Americans on this one. They are the only ethnic group in America depicted as mascots. And I don't want to hear the 'Fight'n Irish' argument, because those of Irish descent love the association with Notre Dame; if they didn't you could bet the ranch that ND would no longer carry that nickname.
Florida State should not be treated any differently, however, and the NCAA should come down on them or strongly suggest it change its name, just as Stanford and St. John's did many years ago.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Since W&M alums are so endeared with "The College" moniker when referring to their beloved alma mater, why not just change its football nickname to 'The College'? They can put little cross-diplomas on their helmets to set in the fear factor.
I'm all for the Native Americans on this one. They are the only ethnic group in America depicted as mascots. And I don't want to hear the 'Fight'n Irish' argument, because those of Irish descent love the association with Notre Dame; if they didn't you could bet the ranch that ND would no longer carry that nickname.
Florida State should not be treated any differently, however, and the NCAA should come down on them or strongly suggest it change its name, just as Stanford and St. John's did many years ago.

Oh, OK, so it's OK to "send a message" to W&M since they're not associated with any specific "tribe", but since there is a loud (and small) Seminole "tribe" that loves Florida State, they should be left alone? And small and influential "Fighting Irish"?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The "Tribe" cannot offend Indians if there is no "Indian" in their name.

[foghorn]

Oh, OK, so it's OK to "send a message" to W&M since they're not associated with any specific "tribe", but since there is a loud (and small) Seminole "tribe" that loves Florida State, they should be left alone? And small and influential "Fighting Irish"?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The "Tribe" cannot offend Indians if there is no "Indian" in their name.

Get real, Lehigh, what on earth else does 'Tribe' refer to if not Indians? While the dictionary meaning can be varied, we all know that the term 'Tribe' refers to Native Americans. Any attempt of spinning this is just asinine.:nono: I don't know how you construed my post to think I would leave FSU off the hook,but I said just the opposite. Go Irish!:hurray:

[WMTribe90]

So, the Seminoles can give permission for FSU to insult all native Americans with their stereotypical macot and tomahawk chop, but WM can't have two feathers on a logo with the blessing of multiple local tribes. Please, that is the most ridiculous "logic" I have ever heard. How are a pair of feathers on a logo "hostile or abusive".

[OrneryAggie]

I agree that native americans have been wrongfully stereotyped by primarily white american sports fans. But I think punishing W&M for having such a generic name as The Tribe is going overboard.

The obvious answer is to have 2 students dress up as giant feathers and dance crazy-like, a la the stanford tree, at W&M sporting events. W&M could keep the feathers in the logo, like Stanford has a tree in its, but wouldn't have to change its official mascot like stanford did.

[SochorField]

I hate that StanfUrd Pine Tree.....I am offended. I know many Bay Area Pine Trees that are offended as well.

W&M have a fantastic logo. And it seems they use it respectfully.

[DFW HOYA]

If enough people say they are offended by "Mountain Hawk", can the NCAA act on that, too?

[henfan]

I'm of Irish decent, not an ND fan at all and not the least bit fond of ND's stupid little lepruchuan. But to me, ND's mascot & logo are only offensive in their lack of style and poor taste, and not so much as an unfavorable representation of Irish culture.

IMO, Native Americans have a legit beef with some college and pro mascots. I'm not sure though how W&M's current use of the Tribe name and feathers could possibly be construed as adding negatively to the plight of America's native people. Just seems like the NCAA is going way overboard, as usual.

[tribe_pride]

Foghorn - Native Americans do not have a problem with our nickname and in fact some or many consider it a compliment. The NCAA has just defined something as offensive without taking into account what the local tribes think.

From President Nichol's self-evaluation sent to the NCAA, "Chief William Miles of the Pamunkey Tribe, with whom I spoke: “I speak for my tribe in saying that there is no perception whatsoever that William and Mary uses the term “Tribe” in a negative way. We’re worried about poverty, homelessness, health care and the like for our people. Not the use of the name Tribe.” Leaders of the Chickahominy, Eastern Chickahominy, and Mattaponi tribes offered similar conclusions. And as a current William and Mary student, who is a member of the Chickahominy Tribe, responded, “I actually consider it a compliment that they want to characterize themselves as a tribe … my opinion is that they should not change the name from the ‘Tribe’.”

The full self-evaluation can be read at http://www.wm.edu/NCAA/ Click on the NCAA Report Link if you want to read more of the report besides his letter.

[henfan]

So, the Seminoles can give permission for FSU to insult all native Americans with their stereotypical macot and tomahawk chop, but WM can't have two feathers on a logo with the blessing of multiple local tribes. Please, that is the most ridiculous "logic" I have ever heard. How are a pair of feathers on a logo "hostile or abusive".

Just like when Peter Minuit bilked the natives out of Manhattan, it's still and always will be all about the Benjamins. If W&M had Florida State's money, power and position in the NCAA, they could whatever they wanted also.

[blukeys]

I'm just glad that there are no Blue Hens out there that the NCAA is looking to defend.

[GannonFan]

From President Nichol's self-evaluation sent to the NCAA, "Chief William Miles of the Pamunkey Tribe, with whom I spoke: “I speak for my tribe in saying that there is no perception whatsoever that William and Mary uses the term “Tribe” in a negative way. We’re worried about poverty, homelessness, health care and the like for our people. Not the use of the name Tribe.” Leaders of the Chickahominy, Eastern Chickahominy, and Mattaponi tribes offered similar conclusions. And as a current William and Mary student, who is a member of the Chickahominy Tribe, responded, “I actually consider it a compliment that they want to characterize themselves as a tribe … my opinion is that they should not change the name from the ‘Tribe’.”


See, there you go - change the name to the William and Mary Pamunkey's or the W&M Chickahominy's or the W&M Mattaponi's and the problem goes away. Or just embellish the feathers to be specific of feathers or something else worn by those specific tribes - seriously, the NCAA has been very simple in this determination - no generic Indian names/symbols but they do allow tribe-specific (i.e. Seminole, Chippewa, Utes) references. Again, why this was a shock considering that they've already blocked very similar generic non-harmful names and symbols at other colleges and universities is the real question to me.

[ucdtim17]

That's great that the local tribes don't care, but Native Americans all over the country might take offense. The Seminoles in Florida may take pride in FSU, but there are probably plenty of others throughout the country who would love to do away with the negative stereotypes and violent connotations the mascot and tomahawk chant suggest. As someone else pointed out, Notre Dame is a totally different case with "Fighting Irish." It was originally an insult but the Irish Catholic school took pride in it and made it their own. I've never heard an Irish or Irish-American take offense to the nickname - it is a point of pride. If a Navajo school wants to call themselves the "Fighting Navajos," I don't think it'd be a problem

[WMTribe90]

UCDTim,

I agree with you completely with regards to FSU. Why do the Seminoles get to decide what is or isn't insulting to all Native Americans. I'm sure a majority of non-Seminole NA's find 50,000 FSU fans doing the tomahawk chop on national TV to be insulting.

However, you should know that WM has no macot. The tomahawk chop has never been performed in our stadium. We don't bang war drums. The two feathers attached to the WM logo is the only NA imagery of any kind found on any equipment, uniforms or merchandise. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many (if any) NA's that would be offended by two feathers in that context.

[tribe_pride]

I don't think anyone is surprised about this ruling but we are in my opinion rightfully upset about it.

The NCAA claims they find nothing offensive about the "Tribe" name but says if we use it, we cannot use it in NCAA championship events or host the events. Why not tell us not to use it. Also, what is the point in having us do a self-evaluation and waste a lot of our time, energy and money if they were not going to hear good arguments anyway. Finding offense with the feathers is just a joke.

GannonFan - you say just change the nickname and the problem goes away. Why should the NCAA tell us to change our nickname. If they find people that are offended by our nickname or logo show them to us and let them make the case but W&M has not received any complaints over our name besides from the NCAA.

[GeauxColonels]

Political corectness has been ruining this country for YEARS and now its effects are permeating into college athletics.

Maybe the NCAA should focus on doing more FOR the STUDENT ATHLETES instead of trying to control the member institutions.

Because of this ruling, former I-AA National Champion Louisiana-Monroe (ULM) has to change its mascot from the Indians to the recently selected Warhawks. The thing is, ULM wasn't using any derogatory images any longer. The helmet decal was the Florida St. spear with the word Louisiana in script in front of it.

[foghorn]

Foghorn - Native Americans do not have a problem with our nickname and in fact some or many consider it a compliment. The NCAA has just defined something as offensive without taking into account what the local tribes think.

From President Nichol's self-evaluation sent to the NCAA, "Chief William Miles of the Pamunkey Tribe, with whom I spoke: “I speak for my tribe in saying that there is no perception whatsoever that William and Mary uses the term “Tribe” in a negative way. We’re worried about poverty, homelessness, health care and the like for our people. Not the use of the name Tribe.” Leaders of the Chickahominy, Eastern Chickahominy, and Mattaponi tribes offered similar conclusions. And as a current William and Mary student, who is a member of the Chickahominy Tribe, responded, “I actually consider it a compliment that they want to characterize themselves as a tribe … my opinion is that they should not change the name from the ‘Tribe’.”



The full self-evaluation can be read at http://www.wm.edu/NCAA/ Click on the NCAA Report Link if you want to read more of the report besides his letter.

Tribe Pride, I know that there is no mal-intent on W&M's using 'tribe' as a nickname. There are some Native Americans who, I'm sure, do, however, and, to me, that is plenty enough. In this day and age of supersensitivity, with PC involved in almost every aspect of American life, I fail to understand why so many refuse to accept the sensitivities of Native Americans, while bending over backwards to patronize other ethnic groups. Hell, people are more apt, publically, to defend the cause of Muslims and terrorist groups than the indigenous Native Americans. Why? Probably because they have very little political clout and are not demographically important to product marketers.

Not at all attempting to denegrate W&M alums, who I'm sure are proud of their fine tradition, both academic and athletic. It's just that I feel the American Indian has been largely short-changed in this society and taken for granted.

[carney2]

If enough people say they are offended by "Mountain Hawk", can the NCAA act on that, too?

I, for one, find it very offensive - both in the singular and the plural.

[tribe_pride]

Foghorn - I understand and respect but disagree with your position. As you can probably guess about me, I think this PC thing has gone way too far and people get too sensitive. I think that the way W&M holds its nickname, it shows a respect to Native Americans and has been treated that way for the years we have been known as the Tribe and before that Indians.

I also don't understand the NCAA's position towards us. They say we are allowed to use the nickname but not the logo. Even though we are allowed to use the nickname though, we cannot use it in NCAA championships or host NCAA events (championships and the like I assume) as long as we have the name. Why the double talk and why allow others that have more offensive logos and mascots (we have none now thank god. Ebirt was horrible and not an Indian - just a blob)?

[colgate13]

I, for one, find it very offensive - both in the singular and the plural.

I only find it offensive when they have more points that Colgate.

[GeauxColonels]

[QUOTE=tribe_pride]I also don't understand the NCAA's position towards us. They say we are allowed to use the nickname but not the logo. Even though we are allowed to use the nickname though, we cannot use it in NCAA championships or host NCAA events (championships and the like I assume) as long as we have the name.[QUOTE]


I still don't see how they can say FEATHERS are offensive to Native American Groups?! PETA perhaps.:twocents:

[SactoHornetFan]

Well, I think Congress is going to do the right and put the NCAA in its rightful place. Miles Brand is a complete sham in my book and as he runs this organization into ground as far as credibility, I hope the door hits him on his way out of the building.

Shame on the NCAA for dictating what a school can and cannot name itself. Its no business of theirs other than the school at hand :nono:

[OrneryAggie]

Anybody know what the NAIA's stance on this subject is?

[GeauxColonels]

Anybody know what the NAIA's stance on this subject is?

I would think that they're just happy to be around! :hurray:

[Lehigh Football Nation]

W&M is getting victimized here. The NCAA has said they want to get tough on the "Indian Nickname" "controversy", but lack the political will to take on either the most biggest schools who are offenders (Florida State).

Therefore, the schools that get the business end of the hot poker? "Smaller" schools such as W&M, UND and others. They allow the NCAA to sound like they are "acting tough" on Indian nicknames without actually doing anything.

I can't speak for other schools, but TWO FREAKIN' FEATHERS ARE NEITHER "HOSTILE" OR "ABUSIVE"!!! That was the whole rationale behind the campaign! The NCAA is being feckless and hypocritical in the worst way. Let the Seminole fans do the "chop" and have the mascots paint themselves with war paint (which, incidentally, ABC uses in their promotion of NCAA football games), while W&M has to be told what to do.

Let's assume that the real goal is that you are trying to stop American Indians from being offended (which I am not at all convinced, BTW). Any idiot can see that you can do the most good by changing the Seminole and the games that appear every week, in one form or another, on TV.

This is not purely an academic exercise. This is what happens to offenders:


William & Mary will be allowed to keep its "Tribe" nickname, but can't use it in NCAA championship competitions and also is barred from holding NCAA events.

I can't speak for other schools, but sending W&M up for this offends me.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I, for one, find it very offensive - both in the singular and the plural.


I only find it offensive when they have more points that Colgate.

xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Tribe4SF]

The truly illogical exception has been granted to San Diego State, because the Aztecs were not located within the United States. Maybe we'll change our name to "The Fighting Mexicans". Apparently that will be ok with the NCAA.

[blukeys]

The truly illogical exception has been granted to San Diego State, because the Aztecs were not located within the United States.


As Larry the Cable Guy says "Nows that's funny, I don't care who you are."

Can't they find a real job for the guy who is in charge of the Indian thing. Aren't there some inportant functions the NCAA needs to do, like investigate possible violations of rules. Maybe Promote National football championships in the areas they actually run footbal championships. :rotateh:

[WMTribe90]

W&M is getting victimized here. The NCAA has said they want to get tough on the "Indian Nickname" "controversy", but lack the political will to take on either the most biggest schools who are offenders (Florida State).

Therefore, the schools that get the business end of the hot poker? "Smaller" schools such as W&M, UND and others. They allow the NCAA to sound like they are "acting tough" on Indian nicknames without actually doing anything.

I can't speak for other schools, but TWO FREAKIN' FEATHERS ARE NEITHER "HOSTILE" OR "ABUSIVE"!!! That was the whole rationale behind the campaign! The NCAA is being feckless and hypocritical in the worst way. Let the Seminole fans do the "chop" and have the mascots paint themselves with war paint (which, incidentally, ABC uses in their promotion of NCAA football games), while W&M has to be told what to do.

Let's assume that the real goal is that you are trying to stop American Indians from being offended (which I am not at all convinced, BTW). Any idiot can see that you can do the most good by changing the Seminole and the games that appear every week, in one form or another, on TV.

This is not purely an academic exercise. This is what happens to offenders:

Well put and exactly my point. How can the NCAA tell WM its two feathers is "hostile and abusive" and then turn around and allow 65,000 FSU fans do the chop on national TV. They've lost all sight of their stated mission as are make the rules up on what's abusive and hostile and what allowable and not as they go.

[MplsBison]

The government has no place interferring with the NCAA. The NCAA is a private entity.

The government should mind its own business.


No school is forced to get rid of it's indian nickname. Just don't wear it in the playoffs and you're fine.

[mainejeff]

I haven't read through this whole thread, but it just seems weird that such an upper crust school located in Virginia is known as the Tribe?:confused:

[blukeys]

Well put and exactly my point. How can the NCAA tell WM its two feathers is "hostile and abusive" and then turn around and allow 65,000 FSU fans do the chop on national TV. They've lost all sight of their stated mission as are make the rules up on what's abusive and hostile and what allowable and not as they go.


Tribe, You and LFN are being totally logical and ignoring the fact that the NCAA is surrendering to the liberal politically correct agenda they have and must now embrace. It is BECAUSE the NCAA lost the fight with FSU that they must now go after the smaller fish. When the politically correct crowd asks about the FSU situation the NCAA can say "but we ended the Fighting Sioux and the feathers at W&M!!!!!!:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

[tribe_pride]

MF - before you post things you don't know about, do some research. W&M has a great history with local and other Tribes.

As President Nichol stated in the school's self-evaluation, "a principal element of the College’s founding mission was the education of indigenous peoples. Our Brafferton School began enrolling young Indian men from tribes throughout the American southeast in 1697."

If you would like to learn more, click on the link below as well as the associated NCAA Report link.

http://www.wm.edu/NCAA/

[HiHiYikas]

Seeing as how Manhattan is named after the natives who, not understanding what they were doing, sold the entire island for about $24, I'd say the name "Manhattan College" is pretty insulting.

Come to think of it, that the island itself retains the name "Manhattan" is more or less offensive. Let's name it after the people who were duped out of it.

If the NCAA were only powerful enough to take Native American names of everything - counties, rivers, islands, mountains, states...

[Demon Fan]

[QUOTE=tribe_pride]I also don't understand the NCAA's position towards us. They say we are allowed to use the nickname but not the logo. Even though we are allowed to use the nickname though, we cannot use it in NCAA championships or host NCAA events (championships and the like I assume) as long as we have the name.[QUOTE]


I still don't see how they can say FEATHERS are offensive to Native American Groups?! PETA perhaps.:twocents:


Correct me if I'm wrong (I hope that I am) but didn't I read in the paper, or hear it on a sports newcast, that Nicholls State is having some "heat" but on it because the mascot is a caricature of a civil war colonel? Have you heard anything about that?

[GeauxColonels]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I hope that I am) but didn't I read in the paper, or hear it on a sports newcast, that Nicholls State is having some "heat" but on it because the mascot is a caricature of a civil war colonel? Have you heard anything about that?

NOPE...no more heat regarding that issue...BECAUSE THEY ALREADY GOT RID OF THE IMAGE!

I'm completely POed about all of this PC bull that's going on in college sports!

The University president - NOT from Louisiana - decided to go against a majority student vote to KEEP the colonel image and ordered that the athletic department to stop using our mascot image and the actual mascot at games.

Here's some history about the Colonel at Nicholls:
Named Tillou after the school's namesake - Francis R. Tillou Nicholls.

Francis Redding Tillou Nicholls was born on August 20, 1834, in Donaldsonville, Ascension Parish. After his graduation from West Point in 1855, he practiced law in South Louisiana. During the Civil War he rose to the rank of brigadier general. His battlefield wounds cost him his left arm and leg and he was a prisoner of war. After the war he returned to his law practice in Napoleonville.
The Louisiana State Democratic Party nominated him for governor in 1876. His election generally is considered to mark the end to Louisiana's political Reconstruction and the reestablishment of "Home Rule."

His second tenure as governor (1888 1892) was climaxed by his successful opposition to the corrupt Louisiana Lottery Company. With his term completed, he was named chief justice to the Louisiana Supreme Court. He retired to his Thibodaux home in 1911 and died in 1912.

The school was founded in 1948, over 80 YEARS after the Civil War. Over the years, the school's ROTC program became very popular. And what was the highest rank a student could attain? COLONEL

Hence, the student population, when asked to pick a mascot to represent the athletic teams naturally chose the Colonel. The school's colors were already red and gray at the time. Tillou the mascot was NOT a Confederate colonel. Schools all over the country use mascots with some historical significance relative to the institution. This was the case in Thibodaux.

Needless to say, the President has lost MUCH support. I get things all the time from the Alumni Association which I REFUSE to support as they did NOTHING to prevent the banning of the Colonel. Incidentally, the school was suppossed to get a firm to come up with a redesigned Colonel mascot...but to date, nothing has come of that. From what I understand, it's been a HORRIBLE bust.


Incidentally, LSU's mascot is the Tiger - named after a Civil War Battalion. I hardly hear anyone complaining about that.

[DFW HOYA]

Sad to say, but NSU could be deemed guilty by association (much like W&M) if the NCAA decides to move against Confederate imagery in mascots as they did against American Indian symbols.

There aren't a lot of schools in this category, but Ole Miss is a likely target.

[GeauxColonels]

Sad to say, but NSU could be deemed guilty by association (much like W&M) if the NCAA decides to move against Confederate imagery in mascots as they did against American Indian symbols.

There aren't a lot of schools in this category, but Ole Miss is a likely target.


Sadly, both schools have already eliminated their mascots.

[MR. CHICKEN]

OURAH FEATHERS ARE ONLY OFFENSIVE.....WHEN YA'LL ARE DOWN BY 20...WHIFF UH MINUTE TA GO!............xsmoochx........BRAWK!

[youwouldno]

The entire controversy is stupid. Even if a school's mascot is "offensive" to a few people somewhere, in the United States there is supposed to exist freedom of speech, meaning "offensive" speech is not prohibited. The NCAA is unfairly-- and probably illegally, even without Congressional action-- restricting universities from using 'brand' type identities which have been just fine under the NCAA regime for many years.

[colgate13]

The entire controversy is stupid. Even if a school's mascot is "offensive" to a few people somewhere, in the United States there is supposed to exist freedom of speech, meaning "offensive" speech is not prohibited. The NCAA is unfairly-- and probably illegally, even without Congressional action-- restricting universities from using 'brand' type identities which have been just fine under the NCAA regime for many years.

I think you're confusing issues here. The NCAA is not the U.S. Government, so the idea of freedom of speech is a non-issue. Constitutional guarantees are for the government, not an association of colleges. :twocents:

[CollegeSportsInfo]

NCAA has finally ruled on W&M's use of Tribe nickname and related imagery. A split decision, that W&M will appeal. College leadership has commented on the absurdity of outlawing our feathers, while condoning Florida State's use of war paint, spears, and violent images. They also commented that it's understandable why Congress is considering taking the issue out of the NCAA's hands.

http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/9443421
Maybe they should just keep the feathers and change their name from "Tribe" to "Flock".:smiley_wi

[GannonFan]

I think you're confusing issues here. The NCAA is not the U.S. Government, so the idea of freedom of speech is a non-issue. Constitutional guarantees are for the government, not an association of colleges. :twocents:

Agreed - besides, the NCAA isn't saying they can't have these names - schools are free to keep whatever name, mascot, or imagery they want. However, if they want to use those things in NCAA sponsored post-season events, or if they want to host any NCAA post season event, then they have to change. If they're alright losing those things for the sake of free speech go right ahead - no one's stopping them.

[Kill'em]

Here's one. Back in 1991, when the Atlanta Braves started their amazing run, a local bar in Savannah (I went to high school with the owners)celebreatd by putting a huge machanical tomohawk in front of the bar and a teepee that they would live in until the Braves' final game in the postseason. An indian lady walked up to us and said "you built your teepee wrong" and she showed us how it was supposed to be built. She was not the least offended and none of her family was.

The NCAA needs to focus on more pressing issues, not political butt-kissing while catering to its cash-cows. It's no suprise the NCAA picked on W&M. It's also no surprise they didn't pick on FSU. FSU makes them a lot of money, much more than W&M, so why would they bite off the poverbial "hand that feeds them?" It's a microcosm of politics in this country. Politicians cater to corporate America and their rich friends because they know that is where the money is and they don't want to lose that support.

[foghorn]

Maybe they should just keep the feathers and change their name from "Tribe" to "Flock".:smiley_wi

There are a lot of good substitutes for 'Tribe'. Here are some....http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=tribe. Just thought of another one; how about 'Goodfellas' ? Kind of tribish!:eek: :smiley_wi

[greenG]

I'm all for the Native Americans on this one. They are the only ethnic group in America depicted as mascots.
Who are these people then?

http://www.ggrtechcomm.com/_SMPIMG_small_OVU%20Mascot%20Logo_Full%20Color_RGB .jpghttp://www.ggrtechcomm.com/VikingLogo_sm.jpg

Not Native American. Certainly ethnic and mascots.

BTW, the Native American community is not unified on this issue. It is a vocal, politically ambitious minority who is playing the victimization card. Most NA I know don't care about such trivia. One local chief said (and I paraphrase) that he is more worried about unemployment, drug abuse, health care, and poverty on his reservation than whether there are feathers on the W&M logo.

[MR. CHICKEN]

YEAH...AN'..."BANANA SLUGS"...HAVE FEELIN'S TOO....:(....AWK!

[skinny_uncle]

Why is it they are all complaing about names involving Indians but no one complains about a name like the Dallas Cowboys?
:confused:

[Mr. C]

YEAH...AN'..."BANANA SLUGS"...HAVE FEELIN'S TOO....:(....AWK!
But Mr. Chicken, the Banana Slugs are not I-AA, so we really don't care about their feelings.

The NCAA is just doing something trivial to William & Mary to make it look like it is being proactive on this subject. The problem with Political Correctness is that it doesn't have a logical end. You can keep on going with PC stuff ad naseum. There will ALWAYS be somebody offended by something. Political Correctness is also anti-American. The first amendment is suppose to guarantee us free speech and PC advocates do more to undercut the first amendment than almost anyone.

[tribe_pride]

MR. C - While I agree that the political correctness has gone too far, since the NCAA is a private organization and not a member of the government, 1st amendment does not apply here. That being said, NCAA should have a lot more to worry about and as said before a small minority complaining (although nobody has complained to W&M) has made this move. You have to wonder how many of the complainers are even Native American.

[Linehawg]

I wrote the NCAA and asked who the idiot was behind this. Surprisingly, no answer.

[youwouldno]

The NCAA does not have free reign because it is a "private" organization. Not even close. First of all, the NCAA has many member institutions that are funded in part by taxpayers. For all intents and purposes, the NCAA has a monopoly on high-level athletic competition, which in turn means that there are anti-trust issues if the NCAA takes arbitrary actions that have a negative effect on certain programs. What is the NCAA's tax status? I don't know, but I imagine they are a 'non-profit' of some sort.

Since taking away the brand identities of certain programs clearly can have a negative financial impact, I think W&M should sue the NCAA. Showing the exact damages that would come from a change is difficult, but then they already have incurred significant expenses dealing with the whole mess. The NCAA is almost certainly guilty of racketeering, though the motive is more political than financial.

Why do you think the NCAA didn't want to mess with FSU? The NCAA is on the wrong side of the law here and will lose if W&M has the cajones to challenge them.

[colgate13]

Not a lawyer, but I think it is a stretch to say that the NCAA barring a school from using a name at playoff contests or hosting playoff contests has a significant financial impact.

[Dane96]

The NCAA does not have free reign because it is a "private" organization. Not even close. First of all, the NCAA has many member institutions that are funded in part by taxpayers. For all intents and purposes, the NCAA has a monopoly on high-level athletic competition, which in turn means that there are anti-trust issues if the NCAA takes arbitrary actions that have a negative effect on certain programs. What is the NCAA's tax status? I don't know, but I imagine they are a 'non-profit' of some sort.

Since taking away the brand identities of certain programs clearly can have a negative financial impact, I think W&M should sue the NCAA. Showing the exact damages that would come from a change is difficult, but then they already have incurred significant expenses dealing with the whole mess. The NCAA is almost certainly guilty of racketeering, though the motive is more political than financial.

Why do you think the NCAA didn't want to mess with FSU? The NCAA is on the wrong side of the law here and will lose if W&M has the cajones to challenge them.

Ok...i wanted to stay out of this for a bit...but some LEGAL comments are a bit twisted here.

First, Federal Education Laws, particularly, Title IX are always the arguments used when taking on the NCAA. In short, the claimants state the NCAA accepts dues of the member schools. Further, those dues are paid for by Federal monies (received by EVERY school in the nation in some manner, shape, or form).

On this argument, the claimants HAVE ALWAYS FAILED! The Supreme Court has made it VERY CLEAR, receipt of federal monies by member schools does not, by itself, put the NCAA under Federal Mandate. If, however, a direct link can be shown between the receipt of Federal monies to the member institutions being passed along to the NCAA, the NCAA would then fall under Federal guidelines.

That being said, Private organzations CAN come under Federal Mandate, including the NCAA. There are numerous arguments including interstate commerce laws, equal protection, etc.

Anti-Trust happens to be one of those arguments, an argument I will not bring up again, however it has been the backbone of numerous assaults (some successful) against the NCAA.

The NCAA is a very distinct group and it is very hard to put them under the auspices of the Federal government. Has it been done? SURE. Is it easy? Heck no.

Put it this way. In Con Law...they make a distinction between a few famous cases involving Local High School Athletic Associations (famous RI case) and the NCAA. Because State money is partially used, even in small amounts, to fund local high school associations, they differ from the NCAA and therefore a claimant has standing to bring a federal argument.

ALL THAT BEING SAID....I THINK THE NCAA NEEDS TO WATCH THE MOVIE PCU!!!

And BTW...there is a clear distinction here between some of those who are bringing up the Seminole argument. The Seminole tribe is BASED ONLY IN FLORIDA...and they gave explicit permission to use the name. While a Pueblo Indian might find ANY use of an Indian name offensive, the NCAA felt that if the Seminole tribe was proud to let their name be used...they were ok with it. At games, there are numerous Seminole traditions followed. The thought is, how can someone living in New Mexico and has no knowledge of the close ties (and they are VERY close) between the Seminole Tribe and the FSU community, tell the two parties to stop doing something because they FIND IT OFFENSIVE.

Do I discount the $$$ argument (FSU makes $$ for the NCAA)? NO. But, I do see how the NCAA is using this fine line argument. I dont agree with it.

Personally, I think this is all much adu about nothing...and we have become too PC!

Here is the thing...the NCAA IS GOING TO GET BITCH SLAPPED ON THIS ISSUE. They ARE being discriminatory and DO fall under the Federal EP clauses because they DO participate in interstate commerce. Brand is getting HORRIBLE legal advice. What the NCAA needed to do was make an across the board rule: "NO INDIAN MONIKERS." The fact they are letting one school do one thing and are punishing others...well, let's just say...EVEN MARCIA CLARK COULDN'T "F" this case up!

And the financial impact argument is actually a pretty good one for a National school like Illinois, opposed to W&M (national as in marketing $$ from sports, not academics).

[GeauxColonels]

Who are these people then?

http://www.ggrtechcomm.com/_SMPIMG_small_OVU%20Mascot%20Logo_Full%20Color_RGB .jpghttp://www.ggrtechcomm.com/VikingLogo_sm.jpg

Not Native American. Certainly ethnic and mascots.

BTW, the Native American community is not unified on this issue. It is a vocal, politically ambitious minority who is playing the victimization card. Most NA I know don't care about such trivia. One local chief said (and I paraphrase) that he is more worried about unemployment, drug abuse, health care, and poverty on his reservation than whether there are feathers on the W&M logo.

You also forgot Fighting Irish and Ragin' Cajuns.

[tribe_pride]

Yoouwouldno - I never meant to imply that the NCAA did not have to follow certain federal laws. I just meant 1st Amendment is out. Dane explained it well better than I could have.

[OrneryAggie]

You also forgot Fighting Irish and Ragin' Cajuns.

And the Gaels (St Mary's and Iona) and Highlanders (Radford and UC Riverside). Though the only complaint you'd probably ever hear any Irish/Scottish gorups bring up is how bad some of the athletics are at those schools.

[Kill'em]

I'll bet there is one thing on which we can all agree, the NCAA is NOT doing this to benefit W&M.

[Blue]

This is some stupid she-ote. Gimme a f-ing break.

I think all schools should have to rename their teams to inanimate objects or elements from the periodic table.

Gooooooooooo you f-ing Cobalts!