This is why YSU will get in over INST

[Sycamore51]

Even though we beat the flightless birds this year, and would come in with the same record if we both win this week, shown below is why YSU will get in over INST if it comes down to one or the other.

NCAA Division I Football Championship Committee
(members)
West: (Chair) Jim O’Day, University of Montana and Robert Hill, Stephen Austin University.
South: Jeff Barber, Liberty University; Derek Carter, Delaware State University and Charles Cobb, Appalachian State University.
East: Jeff Bourne, James Madison University; Craig Coleman, Robert Morris University and David Roach, Colgate University.
Central: Mark Sandy, Eastern Kentucky University; Ron Strollo, Youngstown State University and Tim Wabler, University of Dayton.

[henfan]

Strollo cannot vote for YSU. Committee members are not permitted to cast votes for their own teams.

Don't underestimate the role of the regional advisory committees, who make recommendations to the PSC.

[Sycamore51]

I know they can't vote, but I also know the influence they can have on a vote.

[344Johnson]

If YSU gets in over Indiana State it will be because of the win over NDSU. Looks very good on paper.

[TexasTerror]

And this is why Indiana State would get in over Youngstown State... ISU 37-35 YSU

Sycamores got to worry about winning this week, just as the 'Guins do. Neither team will go if they lose!

[jmufan999]

And this is why Indiana State would get in over Youngstown State... ISU 37-35 YSU

This. If you won head-to-head and have the same record, there is no way they get in ahead of you. You might BOTH get in, but you won't get left out while YSU continues on.

[asumike83]

I would put YSU ahead of Indiana State because of the NDSU win. NDSU has been in the top 5 all season, that was a very impressive victory.

Both are solid but it gets a little murky when your best win is a narrow home win over another bubble team. I think statement victories that prove you can beat the top-flight teams weigh heavily in the committee's decisions.

[Sycamore51]

Our best win is a thrashing of WKU, who has a chance of being a bowl team in the FBS this year. They are 5-1 in the Suck Belt.

[asumike83]

Our best win is a thrashing of WKU, who has a chance of being a bowl team in the FBS this year. They are 5-1 in the Suck Belt.

Good point, I had forgotten about that. Given that it was on the road and very decisive, that could help y'all out.

Honestly, I think YSU may be a better team than WKU but an FBS win is always good for the old resumé!

[Hammerhead]

NDSU was not in the top 5 all season long. We dropped 6 places in the poll when we had a bye week. :) Still, YSU beating the top-ranked team on the road near the end of the season certainly helps their chances.


I would put YSU ahead of Indiana State because of the NDSU win. NDSU has been in the top 5 all season, that was a very impressive victory.

Both are solid but it gets a little murky when your best win is a narrow home win over another bubble team. I think statement victories that prove you can beat the top-flight teams weigh heavily in the committee's decisions.

[PantherRob82]

Members can not even take part in the discussion of their team. Indiana State has a head to head win and a FBS win may trump YSUs one signature win.

[Fear the Bird]

I think they are both ahead of ISU-r should they not beat UNI this week

[Hambone]

Indiana State Losses: Penn State, Illinois State, UNI, NDSU Good wins: Youngstown State, WKU
Youngstown State Losses: Michigan State, SDSU, Indiana State, UNI Good wins: Illinois State, NDSU

It's tough to say what will happen. Looks like Indiana State has all "good" losses, coupled with a head to head win and the FBS win. Youngstown State has what one would probably consider a "bad" loss at home to SDSU, the loss head to head, but two good conference wins against Illinois State and NDSU. This would be a tough choice.......

[Professor Chaos]

What happens if UNI beats Illinois St? They'd all be 7-4 then. Illinois St beat Indiana St, Indiana St beat Youngstown St, Youngstown St beat Illinois St.

I think it would be Indiana St and Youngstown St in that scenario but then you'd have the same beef from Illinois St fans about Indiana St getting in over them when they won the head-to-head matchup. Yeah I know, if IlSU wants to whine they should've beaten EIU but the head-to-head argument is still there. The Trees should be big UNI (and Chatty) fans this week because I don't know how much a 2 point win at home against YSU early in the season will help them when YSU has a late season road win at NDSU to counter it with.

I think if Illinois St wins it'll be YSU in over InSU but that's just my opinion. I'd love to see all 3 of those teams in (Go Mocs!!!).

[asumike83]

What happens if UNI beats Illinois St? They'd all be 7-4 then. Illinois St beat Indiana St, Indiana St beat Youngstown St, Youngstown St beat Illinois St.

I think it would be Indiana St and Youngstown St in that scenario but then you'd have the same beef from Illinois St fans about Indiana St getting in over them when they won the head-to-head matchup. Yeah I know, if IlSU wants to whine they should've beaten EIU but the head-to-head argument is still there. The Trees should be big UNI (and Chatty) fans this week because I don't know how much a 2 point win at home against YSU early in the season will help them when YSU has a late season road win at NDSU to counter it with.

I think if Illinois St wins it'll be YSU in over InSU but that's just my opinion. I'd love to see all 3 of those teams in (Go Mocs!!!).

Agreed. Illinois State does not deserve a bid if they do not upset UNI. If they get their marquee win and 8th overall, they're in. A loss to UNI would drop them to 7-4, all of which are FCS losses since they did not play an FBS this year. 4 FCS losses (one of which was to a terrible EIU team) and no marquee wins would/should remove them from consideration.

[bjtheflamesfan]

Someone may have mentioned this already but if your school is being discussed you cant even be in the room so the YSU AD cant have any influence on any of the other selection committee members

[RabidRabbit]

And this is why Indiana State would get in over Youngstown State... ISU 37-35 YSU

Sycamores got to worry about winning this week, just as the 'Guins do. Neither team will go if they lose!

+ WKU blow out win.
IN St, SHSU and NDSU are the only 3 in play-off consideration with FBS wins. That will help the Sycs case.

[kevin1633]

What is the possibility MVFC gets 5 teams in?

[Professor Chaos]

What is the possibility MVFC gets 5 teams in?
Provided Indiana St and Youngtown win their season finale: Chatty needs to beat Wofford. Illinois St most likely needs to beat UNI. And the committee needs to value YSU and InSU above JMU (or JMU needs to lose to UMass).

[MplsBison]

Members can not even take part in the discussion of their team. Indiana State has a head to head win and a FBS win may trump YSUs one signature win.

Wasn't it just brought up in another thread that some guy on the committee was quoted saying he can be part of the discussion, just not the vote?

Swear I saw that.

[Sycamore51]

It doesn't even matter if you're part of the discussion or not. Human nature says that if two things are even, I'm putting my support behind my "friend"

[MplsBison]

+ WKU blow out win.
IN St, SHSU and NDSU are the only 3 in play-off consideration with FBS wins. That will help the Sycs case.

Here is how you rank those FBS wins:

1) Minnesota (NDSU)
2) Western Kentucky (IN St)
.
.
.
.
.
.
1238210391203) New Mexico (SHSU ... needed OT to beat them)


New Mexico is absolutely terrible. Far, far worse than either Minnesota or Western Kentucky.

[MplsBison]

It doesn't even matter if you're part of the discussion or not. Human nature says that if two things are even, I'm putting my support behind my "friend"

Who says they like the guy just because they're on the same committee? If anything, maybe the guy is a prick and they vote against him.

But this should all be a moot point, all five from the MVFC should be a done deal irregardless if IL St beats UNI or not.

[ysubigred]

Page 15 on is interesting.

Selection Criteria Page 18.

#4 below really should help YSU, ISU (r) and Indy ST against other 7 D1 win teams that played a DII or lower if we all end up 7-D1 W's.

[Reference: Bylaws 31.01.2, 31.01.3 and 31.3 in the NCAA Manual.]
At-large teams shall be selected by the Division I football committee, assisted by four
regional advisory committees that serve in an advisory capacity only.
The following principles shall apply when selecting at-large teams:
1. The committee shall select the best teams available on a national at-large basis to
complete the bracket. Per NCAA Bylaw 31, the basic criteria used in the selection
of at-large participants are (1) won-lost record, (2) strength-of-schedule, and (3)
eligibility and availability of student-athletes for the NCAA championship;
2. There is no limit to the number of teams the committee may select from one conference;
3. The won-lost record of a team will be scrutinized to determine a team’s strength of
schedule; however, less than seven Division I wins may place a team in jeopardy of
not being selected;
4. The committee may give more consideration to those teams that have played all
Division I opponents; and
5. If the team of a committee member is under consideration, the member may not vote
for the team being considered and will not be in the room when a vote is taken.
6. For those conferences that qualify for automatic qualification but do not receive it,
a guaranteed at-large position shall be awarded in any year in which its conference
champion team meets all of the following conditions:
a. Team wins a minimum of eight Division I games during the season;
b. Team wins a minimum of two non-conference games against Division I teams
representing a conference that has earned an automatic qualification in that year;
and
c. Team finishes the season ranked 20 or higher in an average of the last regularseason
media, coaches and/or computer polls (which will be determined by
the committee on an annual basis). For 2011, the media poll will be the Sports
Network Poll, the coaches poll will be the FCS Coaches poll and the computer
poll will be a variation of the Gridiron Power Index – using only the following
computer rankings: The Massey Ratings, Wolfe Rankings, Ashburn Rankings,
Self Rankings and the Laz Index.
[See Appendix B (page 43) for a map of the geographical regions.]

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/251baf00487fc31fb7d5ffb1fe52de76/2011+FB.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=251baf00487fc31fb7d5ffb1fe52de76

[Grizzlies82]

What is the possibility MVFC gets 5 teams in?

I'd have to guess it is very slim. As Prof. Chaos pointed out, it would involve each of the final three MVFC teams winning, AND require other bubble teams losing (Wofford and JMU at the least, and perhaps even more teams losing).

In the past a conference has brought five teams in. Yet typically if given relatively equal choices (similar records) the committee will "spread the wealth" and give another conference a second spot rather than making it top heavy from one. The process is never perfect but it does seem to work out fairly well in the end.

[ysubigred]

I'd have to guess it is very slim. As Prof. Chaos pointed out, it would involve each of the final three MVFC teams winning, AND require other bubble teams losing (Wofford and JMU at the least, and perhaps even more teams losing).

In the past a conference has brought five teams in. Yet typically if given relatively equal choices (similar records) the committee will "spread the wealth" and give another conference a second spot rather than making it top heavy from one. The process is never perfect but it does seem to work out fairly well in the end.

Not true!! from above^ 1. The committee shall select the best teams available on a national at-large basis to
complete the bracket. Per NCAA Bylaw 31, the basic criteria used in the selection
of at-large participants are (1) won-lost record, (2) strength-of-schedule, and (3)
eligibility and availability of student-athletes for the NCAA championship;
2. There is no limit to the number of teams the committee may select from one conference

[RabidRabbit]

Here is how you rank those FBS wins:

1) Minnesota (NDSU)
2) Western Kentucky (IN St)
.
.
.
.
.
.
1238210391203) New Mexico (SHSU ... needed OT to beat them)


New Mexico is absolutely terrible. Far, far worse than either Minnesota or Western Kentucky.

Yep, UNM definitely held the #1 position in the ESPN bottom 10

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/page/bottom10110928/maryland-terrapins-earn-not-coveted-no-5-spot-bottom-10

for 10 of 11 weeks this season, until this last week's fluke win over another FCS loser, UNLV. NM would be a good candidate to be relegated to FCS in football.

[jmu_duke07]

Not true!! from above^ 1. The committee shall select the best teams available on a national at-large basis to
complete the bracket. Per NCAA Bylaw 31, the basic criteria used in the selection
of at-large participants are (1) won-lost record, (2) strength-of-schedule, and (3)
eligibility and availability of student-athletes for the NCAA championship;
2. There is no limit to the number of teams the committee may select from one conference

Yeah, but it doesn't state that it could be used against them either.

[Grizzlies82]

Not true!! from above^ 1. The committee shall select the best teams available on a national at-large basis to
complete the bracket. Per NCAA Bylaw 31, the basic criteria used in the selection
of at-large participants are (1) won-lost record, (2) strength-of-schedule, and (3)
eligibility and availability of student-athletes for the NCAA championship;
2. There is no limit to the number of teams the committee may select from one conference

I realize that. I'm just stating what I have observed over the years. Five teams may get in from your conference or the CAA. Yet this requires several specific wins and losses on Saturday to make that sort of choice easier for the committee. It is largely in the air still. I believe YSU has a fair shot (as one of 4 or 5). But Saturday's outcomes are the key, heck a Maine win could even send New Hampshire home for the holidays. We'll all know Sunday morning.

[ysubigred]

I realize that. I'm just stating what I have observed over the years. Five teams may get in from your conference or the CAA. Yet this requires several specific wins and losses on Saturday to make that sort of choice easier for the committee. It is largely in the air still. I believe YSU has a fair shot (as one of 4 or 5). But Saturday's outcomes are the key, heck a Maine win could even send New Hampshire home for the holidays. We'll all know Sunday morning.

I agree. I just wish they would select the 20 best teams period.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I know they can't vote, but I also know the influence they can have on a vote.

Wait...how do you know this? Have you been involved in this process?

[FargoBison]

I'd have to guess it is very slim. As Prof. Chaos pointed out, it would involve each of the final three MVFC teams winning, AND require other bubble teams losing (Wofford and JMU at the least, and perhaps even more teams losing).

In the past a conference has brought five teams in. Yet typically if given relatively equal choices (similar records) the committee will "spread the wealth" and give another conference a second spot rather than making it top heavy from one. The process is never perfect but it does seem to work out fairly well in the end.

I think it would happen if everything he said happened because it would create a scenario where the committee would have no choice. That said the chances of all that happening are slim, the MVFC will likely get four.

[asumike83]

But this should all be a moot point, all five from the MVFC should be a done deal irregardless if IL St beats UNI or not.

I just do not see what argument you can make for Illinois State if they lose this weekend. They would be the only team in the field with 4 FCS losses, they have no great win and the worst loss of any team on the bubble.

If they do take another loss this weekend and manage to get a bid, I'd love to see them in our bracket.

[MplsBison]

I just do not see what argument you can make for Illinois State if they lose this weekend. They would be the only team in the field with 4 FCS losses, they have no great win and the worst loss of any team on the bubble.

If they do take another loss this weekend and manage to get a bid, I'd love to see them in our bracket.

4 FCS loses is a non-argument. You get no credit for losing to a FBS team.

IL State will (most likely) have lost to three playoff teams, two of which will be seeded and none of which will be blowouts and will have beat another playoff team (IN St).


The fact that the EIU loss is so disproportionate to the rest of their season and the facts that it is a rivalry game and the first game of the season make it irrelevant, other than the fact that it puts their record at 7-4 - the same as other teams making the playoffs.


No way you can keep them out.

[Fear the Bird]

4 FCS loses is a non-argument. You get no credit for losing to a FBS team.

IL State will (most likely) have lost to three playoff teams, two of which will be seeded and none of which will be blowouts and will have beat another playoff team (IN St).


The fact that the EIU loss is so disproportionate to the rest of their season and the facts that it is a rivalry game and the first game of the season make it irrelevant, other than the fact that it puts their record at 7-4 - the same as other teams making the playoffs.


No way you can keep them out.

one of the most ridiculous things i have read from somebody other than thefan

[asumike83]

4 FCS loses is a non-argument. You get no credit for losing to a FBS team.

IL State will (most likely) have lost to three playoff teams, two of which will be seeded and none of which will be blowouts and will have beat another playoff team (IN St).


The fact that the EIU loss is so disproportionate to the rest of their season and the facts that it is a rivalry game and the first game of the season make it irrelevant, other than the fact that it puts their record at 7-4 - the same as other teams making the playoffs.


No way you can keep them out.

I know you are an MVFC fan, but come on. You really think that 4 FCS losses is a non-argument? Losing to an FBS teams is obviously not a credit but as the committee has clearly stated, it is also not held against you. That is the reason there are many other 7-4 teams that make it. There are dozens of good 6-5 teams out there with an FBS loss. Does that mean if they'd played Charleston Southern instead of a BCS team they would all of a sudden be playoff worthy?

Losing to a terrible team is not irrelevant, rivalry or not. That would be like ASU losing to Western. If it happens, you don't deserve to be in the playoffs without some seriously good wins.

They will not get a bid without a win this weekend, and rightfully so.

[Dgreenwell3]

Eiu is so bad that their basketball team is getting all of the attention in charleston...just said it lol

[bjtheflamesfan]

Wait...how do you know this? Have you been involved in this process?

ursus is right...unless youve been part of the process how do you know that? From what Ive gathered reading the 2010 handbook, the chances are already pretty slim of an AD having influence in whether or not his team gets selected...then add that they arent even in the room for their teams's turn...that pretty much settles it Id think. Not to mention, wouldnt that reek of something that could cause some serious legal problems if ADs could "influence" the selection committee to give their institution over another one

[UNIFanSince1983]

The reason I am so worried about this Illinois State game this weekend is they are in with a win and out with a loss. This weekend is a play in game for them. That loss to EIU will keep them out if they don't win on Saturday.

I think YSU and the Trees should be cheering for UNI this weekend. I think if Illinois State loses and they both win they can both get in. If Illinois State wins it will take away from one of those two teams. Most likely YSU, but the committee might look at what has happened recently, and they have been more impressive recently than the Trees.

[MplsBison]

I know you are an MVFC fan, but come on. You really think that 4 FCS losses is a non-argument? Losing to an FBS teams is obviously not a credit but as the committee has clearly stated, it is also not held against you. That is the reason there are many other 7-4 teams that make it. There are dozens of good 6-5 teams out there with an FBS loss. Does that mean if they'd played Charleston Southern instead of a BCS team they would all of a sudden be playoff worthy?

Losing to a terrible team is not irrelevant, rivalry or not. That would be like ASU losing to Western. If it happens, you don't deserve to be in the playoffs without some seriously good wins.

They will not get a bid without a win this weekend, and rightfully so.

A 6-5 team that trades an FBS loss for a win over C South to get to 7-4 would be less worthy than IL State. Easy.

EIU is a full scholarship team. They have talent and are a consistently good, not great, program. Like a lot OVC teams, actually.

C South is a low or no scholarship team. A win over them is worthless.

[MplsBison]

The reason I am so worried about this Illinois State game this weekend is they are in with a win and out with a loss. This weekend is a play in game for them. That loss to EIU will keep them out if they don't win on Saturday.

I think YSU and the Trees should be cheering for UNI this weekend. I think if Illinois State loses and they both win they can both get in. If Illinois State wins it will take away from one of those two teams. Most likely YSU, but the committee might look at what has happened recently, and they have been more impressive recently than the Trees.

IL St wins and there are for sure 5 MVFC teams in.

IL St loses and it will be 4 or 5, depending on what happens elsewhere. They should certainly get in over any other 7-4 team from conferences other than CAA or SoCon.

[asumike83]

A 6-5 team that trades an FBS loss for a win over C South to get to 7-4 would be less worthy than IL State. Easy.

EIU is a full scholarship team. They have talent and are a consistently good, not great, program. Like a lot OVC teams, actually.

C South is a low or no scholarship team. A win over them is worthless.

That is EXACTLY what Illinois State did. The only difference is it was non-scholarship Morehead State, 2-8 out of the Pioneer League. Absolutely worthless win.

If they lose on Saturday, they will be no more qualified than the many 6-5 teams out there. The only reason they would even be in the conversation is because they took the non-scholarship gate revenue home game instead of the FBS money game to get to 7 wins.

The MVFC is a good conference. However, just being in the conference does not make them playoff caliber. They do not deserve a bid at 7-4 and they will not get one.

[FargoBison]

The reason I am so worried about this Illinois State game this weekend is they are in with a win and out with a loss. This weekend is a play in game for them. That loss to EIU will keep them out if they don't win on Saturday.

I think YSU and the Trees should be cheering for UNI this weekend. I think if Illinois State loses and they both win they can both get in. If Illinois State wins it will take away from one of those two teams. Most likely YSU, but the committee might look at what has happened recently, and they have been more impressive recently than the Trees.

I think if ISUr wins, Indiana State is out since YSU would have wins over two playoff teams.

[FargoBison]

IL St wins and there are for sure 5 MVFC teams in.

IL St loses and it will be 4 or 5, depending on what happens elsewhere. They should certainly get in over any other 7-4 team from conferences other than CAA or SoCon.

MVFC only gets five if ISUr wins and Wofford loses. Even then things would get interesting between JMU and the fifth MVFC team, but an ISUr win would give that fifth team a clear edge.

[bjtheflamesfan]

DOnt forget also that YSU can play themselves out of contention with a loss this weekend

[FargoBison]

DOnt forget also that YSU can play themselves out of contention with a loss this weekend

I think Indiana State is far more likely to lose, SIU is much better than MSU. YSU should put up a ton of points vs MSU at home.

[bjtheflamesfan]

Pardon me for channeling TheFan for a few moments but dont forget that your boys closed the year with Missouri State last year...and we know how that one turned out...(smh)

[FargoBison]

Pardon me for channeling TheFan for a few moments but dont forget that your boys closed the year with Missouri State last year...and we know how that one turned out...(smh)

If YSU had to go to MSU I'd say it was possible(even though MSU is not as good as they were last year) but like I said my money for an upset would be on SIU. They are capable of playing tough defense and their running back is tough.

When people talk about that game(NDSU/MSU last year) they always forget we had to play our third string QB in the second half because our other two QBs were knocked out and our third string QB was terrible.

[Dgreenwell3]

I think if ISUr wins, Indiana State is out since YSU would have wins over two playoff teams.

Actually indiana state would have beat two post season teams in western Kentucky (likely a bowl team) and ysu

[Sycamore51]

Wait...how do you know this? Have you been involved in this process?

Not this process, but most people who have been a coach, athletic director, or in administration will tell you that it happens a lot. Maybe college guys are a complete 180 from high school people, but I'd be willing to bet it's similar.

[penguinpower]

YSU has absolutely no influence. They have been left out at 8-3 on every occasion that I can remember. They only let the Penguins in if they win 9.........at least that is what the data tells me.

The conference commish doesn't carry any weight either. She is a complete bafoon.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Not this process, but most people who have been a coach, athletic director, or in administration will tell you that it happens a lot. Maybe college guys are a complete 180 from high school people, but I'd be willing to bet it's similar.

Well, I've been watching this and how it's done for a long time and just haven't seen what you think may happen. People always say things like this because it is easy to do and you really don't have to back this up with any specific cases to have a few people start to buy into the conspiracy thinking. I know that this has been said about JMU, Montana, etc...having people on the selection committee in the past and it just doesn't work out that you can find a team getting in that shouldn't have and they have a rep on the committee that I can remember.

There are 10 spots for the 10 teams that had the best seasons but didn't win their conference. If you have 8 wins you are probably firmly in there. If you have 7 then you can't make an infallable argument that you deserve in...hence the bubble. To me, the Sycs and Penguins are a coin flip.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

YSU has absolutely no influence. They have been left out at 8-3 on every occasion that I can remember. They only let the Penguins in if they win 9.........at least that is what the data tells me.

The conference commish doesn't carry any weight either. She is a complete bafoon.

How many times has YSU had 8 D1 wins and been left out?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

YSU has absolutely no influence. They have been left out at 8-3 on every occasion that I can remember. They only let the Penguins in if they win 9.........at least that is what the data tells me.

The conference commish doesn't carry any weight either. She is a complete bafoon.

How many times has YSU had 8 D1 wins and been left out?

[UNIFanSince1983]

How many times has YSU had 8 D1 wins and been left out?

It did happen in 2005. I will qualify that by saying they played a sub DI team that year.

And UNI was left out of the playoffs with 8 wins in 1989 and 1999. And I think we also played a sub DI in both those years, but am not positive on that one.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

It did happen in 2005. I will qualify that by saying they played a sub DI team that year.

And UNI was left out of the playoffs with 8 wins in 1989 and 1999. And I think we also played a sub DI in both those years, but am not positive on that one.

Then they didn't have 8 wins. They had 7. It's amazing to me that we know the currency to be D1 wins and that D2 and lower mean nothing and yet people pawn it off as 8 wins...it isn't.

If I were to go to the store and the clerk says "that will be $8" and I hand him $7 and a rock he's gonna chuckle at me and tell me to get out the other dollar or GTFO of his store.

[Grizzlies82]

Ursus,
So my question is "How do we get our AD to schedule an FCS team, ANY FCS team, rather than the darn DII's?". I suspect we sure as heck should be able to offer enough of a perk to get them in the door.

[asumike83]

Ursus,
So my question is "How do we get our AD to schedule an FCS team, ANY FCS team, rather than the darn DII's?". I suspect we sure as heck should be able to offer enough of a perk to get them in the door.

I think it is simply a numbers game. There are only so many FCS teams out there with matching open dates on their schedule and feasible travel. In come cases, it would probably just be a lot easier to get a DII from 100 miles away to come get you a home gate than get an FCS school from 500 miles away.

[penguinpower]

How many times has YSU had 8 D1 wins and been left out?

Not sure about the D1 wins, but I know they won 8 and were left out in 2001,2002,2005,2007. They won 9 in 2006 and seeded 4th losing to App State in the semifinals

[Fear the Bird]

I think it is simply a numbers game. There are only so many FCS teams out there with matching open dates on their schedule and feasible travel. In come cases, it would probably just be a lot easier to get a DII from 100 miles away to come get you a home gate than get an FCS school from 500 miles away.

Sure and timing...keep in mind that if FBS comes calling we have to take the payday and might cancel with little notice forcing an AD to scramble. For example (only an example not out of spite whichi have used bevore). Bear with me as i may mix up teams but several years back UDel and Furman scheduledna home-and-home. Firstbyear UD goes to FU and gets beat pretty good with Max Lerner from that MTV show making all kinds of plays. Offseason Mizzou needs a game and FU drops their return date. UD was fortunate enough to scrmble and het Duquesne, Albany or Del St i beleive but could have just as easily been stuck looking at (another) D2

[Fear the Bird]

2001,2002,2005,2007. They won 9 in 2006 and was seeded 4th losing to App State in the semifinals

Might have been counting Clarion and Lock Haven as wins in 2001 as the reason they were left out

[Professor Chaos]

I don't think ISU-Red is clearly out if they lose. They have a comparable resume to a 7-4 JMU or a 8-3 UCA regardless of their bad loss to EIU. I may be reading too much into the book that the committee is supposed to go by but I think they look more into who-did-you-play and who-did-you-beat than looking at who-did-you-lose-to in evaluating at-large teams. ISU-Red has good wins over Indiana St and South Dakota. I wouldn't be shocked to see UCA or JMU get in over them but there's not much difference between the 3 if IlSU loses this weekend if you ask me.

[penguinpower]

Might have been counting Clarion and Lock Haven as wins in 2001 as the reason they were left out

I edited my post as I do not know how many D1's they had during those years.

[penguinpower]

Might have been counting Clarion and Lock Haven as wins in 2001 as the reason they were left out

Also wanted to say that I don't think the committee rule book had the 7 win criteria until 2004 or 2005. As early as 1999 some teams made the playoffs with 6 wins.

[asumike83]

I edited my post as I do not know how many D1's they had during those years.

Even with only 7 DI wins, y'all got shafted in '05. Only 2 FCS losses were road games against UNI and SIU, both of whom went to the playoffs and won games.

[Professor Chaos]

Not sure about the D1 wins, but I know they won 8 and were left out in 2001,2002,2005,2007. They won 9 in 2006 and seeded 4th losing to App State in the semifinals
In 2001 YSU was 8-3 but two of those wins were against D2 Clarion and Lock Haven.
In 2002 YSU was 7-4 but one of those wins was against D2 Clarion.
In 2007 YSU was 7-4 but one of those wins was against D2 Lock Haven.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Ursus,
So my question is "How do we get our AD to schedule an FCS team, ANY FCS team, rather than the darn DII's?". I suspect we sure as heck should be able to offer enough of a perk to get them in the door.

But we really can't. I bet they've tried but the way NDSU did it and the way we've done it in the past with a team like Albany is to pay then a nominal amount and they are happy to get some name recognition out of it. Hell that's the same way it was Cal Poly too for a very long time but at some point we've used them and they've gotten some of what they need from us and then it comes to pay and/or do a H&H.

Whe you look at the return on paying a D2 to come in (early) then it must be tough to turn down because it's part of the way things work now...and actually has always been the way things work for us. Our location just detracts from being able to got the full D1 route. Hell if you think it's bad now go look at how it was back in the late 80's and early 90's! In 1995 we had 3 D2's on our schedule and we had Portland State as a D2 all the time with Thomos Moore, Chico State, Humbolt State...etc., etc.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Also wanted to say that I don't think the committee rule book had the 7 win criteria until 2004 or 2005. As early as 1999 some teams made the playoffs with 6 wins.

I remember in 1995 Idaho had to beat us to get to 7 D1 wins and be playoff eligible after starting 0-4 and they did and got in on a 7 game win streak. Almost identical to what EWU would have had to pull off this year.

The 7 wins is a guidline but it could be gone outside of if the committee feels like some special exception should be made but I think you are confusing any 6 win teams that got in with the at large teams we are talking about here. Those 6 win teams were very likely conference champs and therefore auto quoalifiers because I don't know of a 6 win at large that has ever made the field...but I haven't went and looked that up for sure.

Trust me the 7 D1 wins has been a rule for a very long time although it is not specifically stated as a requirement when you are talking about at large berths.

[UNIFanSince1983]

In 2001 YSU was 8-3 but two of those wins were against D2 Clarion and Lock Haven.
In 2002 YSU was 7-4 but one of those wins was against D2 Clarion.
In 2007 YSU was 7-4 but one of those wins was against D2 Lock Haven.

In 2005 they were 8-3 but one was against D2 Slippery Rock

[penguinpower]

I remember in 1995 Idaho had to beat us to get to 7 D1 wins and be playoff eligible after starting 0-4 and they did and got in on a 7 game win streak. Almost identical to what EWU would have had to pull off this year.

The 7 wins is a guidline but it could be gone outside of if the committee feels like some special exception should be made but I think you are confusing any 6 win teams that got in with the at large teams we are talking about here. Those 6 win teams were very likely conference champs and therefore auto quoalifiers because I don't know of a 6 win at large that has ever made the field...but I haven't went and looked that up for sure.

Trust me the 7 D1 wins has been a rule for a very long time although it is not specifically stated as a requirement when you are talking about at large berths.

Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't sure.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't sure.

My pleasure my man, I love talking about this stuff!:D

[PantherRob82]

We also know that one of YSUs losses in every year since 2001 was to UNI. Maybe we should just let them schedule 12 games every year. Seems kind of unfair. :D

[Engineer86]

4 FCS loses is a non-argument. You get no credit for losing to a FBS team.

IL State will (most likely) have lost to three playoff teams, two of which will be seeded and none of which will be blowouts and will have beat another playoff team (IN St).


The fact that the EIU loss is so disproportionate to the rest of their season and the facts that it is a rivalry game and the first game of the season make it irrelevant, other than the fact that it puts their record at 7-4 - the same as other teams making the playoffs.


No way you can keep them out.

You get no credit for FBS losses, but you do get credit for FCS losses? This is an interesting argument! xlolxxsmhx

[Sycamore51]

Well, I've been watching this and how it's done for a long time and just haven't seen what you think may happen. People always say things like this because it is easy to do and you really don't have to back this up with any specific cases to have a few people start to buy into the conspiracy thinking. I know that this has been said about JMU, Montana, etc...having people on the selection committee in the past and it just doesn't work out that you can find a team getting in that shouldn't have and they have a rep on the committee that I can remember.

There are 10 spots for the 10 teams that had the best seasons but didn't win their conference. If you have 8 wins you are probably firmly in there. If you have 7 then you can't make an infallable argument that you deserve in...hence the bubble. To me, the Sycs and Penguins are a coin flip.

Nobody said that YSU is not deserving of a spot. What was said is that if the final spot comes down to INST and YSU, that this could have some influence. If you are at the office Christmas party and you see two good looking pies sitting there, and you know that one was brought by your friend, but you have no idea where the other one came from, what pie would you take a piece of. Same type of pie, same ingredients, and they even look pretty much identical. Your friend doesn’t have to say a word, but you know and trust them and you know that taking a piece of their pie would make them feel good and that they may someday return the favor. I realize this is a crude example, but it’s human nature at work. It doesn’t matter if you’re hiring for a position, choosing a high school all-conference team, or picking the FCS playoff teams. People will more often than not go with a product if they know, and are friendly with, its owner/coach/maker.

[MplsBison]

That is EXACTLY what Illinois State did. The only difference is it was non-scholarship Morehead State, 2-8 out of the Pioneer League. Absolutely worthless win.

If they lose on Saturday, they will be no more qualified than the many 6-5 teams out there. The only reason they would even be in the conversation is because they took the non-scholarship gate revenue home game instead of the FBS money game to get to 7 wins.

The MVFC is a good conference. However, just being in the conference does not make them playoff caliber. They do not deserve a bid at 7-4 and they will not get one.

All three of IL St, IN St and YSU beat a Pioneer school in order to get to their (assuming) 7 wins. Yes, I hate that fact and I want to slap all three schools for doing such a stupid, unforgivable thing.

That said - I know that the committee won't hold it against them like I do and they're still better than any 7 win team not from the MVFC, SoCon or CAA. Therefore, they all get in.

[Engineer86]

I edited my post as I do not know how many D1's they had during those years.

2002 you were 7-4 and that includes a win over Clarion
2005 you were 8-3 but that includes a win over Slippery Rock
2007 you were 7-4 and that includes a win over Lock Haven

so you only had 7 FCS wins in 2005, others only 6. Unless you have other years, you have not been left out with 8 FCS wins.

Here is the link http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/missourivalley/youngstown_state/yearly_results.php?year=2005

[MplsBison]

You get no credit for FBS losses, but you do get credit for FCS losses? This is an interesting argument! xlolxxsmhx

FBS losses are equal to FCS loses against full (or high) scholarship FCS teams. That was the obvious point I was making.

You knew that. Obtuse.

[Engineer86]

FBS losses are equal to FCS loses against full (or high) scholarship FCS teams. That was the obvious point I was making.

You knew that. Obtuse.

No credit for one and in the next statement you take credit for FCS losses. Not obtuse ... more like ridiculous.

[asumike83]

FBS losses are equal to FCS loses against full (or high) scholarship FCS teams. That was the obvious point I was making.

That is incorrect. You cannot really think that the committee views a loss to Eastern Illinois as equal to a loss against Alabama because EIU has full scholarships, right?

It has been openly stated that they do not hold FBS losses against a team when selecting for the playoffs. For example, ASU got destroyed by Florida in the final week of the season last year and still got the #1 seed. Do you honestly think we would have been the #1 seed if it was Samford we'd gotten blown out by? Of course not.

An FBS loss is not equal to an FCS loss. It is not an even playing field and the selection committee knows this. That is why so many 7-4 teams get in. The vast majority of those teams had 1 of their 4 losses come to an FBS team they needed to play for financial reasons, and this is taken into account.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Nobody said that YSU is not deserving of a spot. What was said is that if the final spot comes down to INST and YSU, that this could have some influence. If you are at the office Christmas party and you see two good looking pies sitting there, and you know that one was brought by your friend, but you have no idea where the other one came from, what pie would you take a piece of. Same type of pie, same ingredients, and they even look pretty much identical. Your friend doesn’t have to say a word, but you know and trust them and you know that taking a piece of their pie would make them feel good and that they may someday return the favor. I realize this is a crude example, but it’s human nature at work. It doesn’t matter if you’re hiring for a position, choosing a high school all-conference team, or picking the FCS playoff teams. People will more often than not go with a product if they know, and are friendly with, its owner/coach/maker.

Ok, I'll work with this even though it's kind of a sily analogy. Let's say that isn't necessarily a friend but you know the person and you in fact had this person's pie before and know that it just isn't that good an in fact that person told you your own pie was **** last year or in years past.

It's silly and you are making excuses in advance in case it doesn't happen because your team has not separated themselves as a pie that everybody wants.

C'mon man, you know you are doing that right?

[Sycamore51]

Ok, I'll work with this even though it's kind of a sily analogy. Let's say that isn't necessarily a friend but you know the person and you in fact had this person's pie before and know that it just isn't that good an in fact that person told you your own pie was **** last year or in years past.

It's silly and you are making excuses in advance in case it doesn't happen because your team has not separated themselves as a pie that everybody wants.

C'mon man, you know you are doing that right?

That's exactly what I'm doing. Wasn't that apparent from the title and from my first post? I think I said that we were pretty much even, and that it would be difficult to determine between the two, and that this could be a deciding factor. To me that sounds like I'm making a pretty obvious excuse as to why we may not get in when it boils down to 2 teams, with the same records, with us holding the tie breaker, and an FBS win. Sorry it took you so long to figure it out. I wasn't trying to hide anything. I thought it was pretty self-explanatory.

[MplsBison]

That is incorrect. You cannot really think that the committee views a loss to Eastern Illinois as equal to a loss against Alabama because EIU has full scholarships, right?

It has been openly stated that they do not hold FBS losses against a team when selecting for the playoffs. For example, ASU got destroyed by Florida in the final week of the season last year and still got the #1 seed. Do you honestly think we would have been the #1 seed if it was Samford we'd gotten blown out by? Of course not.

An FBS loss is not equal to an FCS loss. It is not an even playing field and the selection committee knows this. That is why so many 7-4 teams get in. The vast majority of those teams had 1 of their 4 losses come to an FBS team they needed to play for financial reasons, and this is taken into account.

I agree with you -- FBS losses won't be held against potential at-large teams. Never said or implied differently.

The idea that team A, 7-4 with 4 losses to full-scholarship FCS teams and team B, 7-4 with 3 losses to full-scholarship FCS teams and 1 loss to an FBS team, could be judged differently based only on the overall record and the FCS/FBS status of the losses is preposterous! There are too many other factors that will go into the evaluation.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

That's exactly what I'm doing. Wasn't that apparent from the title and from my first post? I think I said that we were pretty much even, and that it would be difficult to determine between the two, and that this could be a deciding factor. To me that sounds like I'm making a pretty obvious excuse as to why we may not get in when it boils down to 2 teams, with the same records, with us holding the tie breaker, and an FBS win. Sorry it took you so long to figure it out. I wasn't trying to hide anything. I thought it was pretty self-explanatory.

It was evident from the beginning, I just didn't know if you realized it. You did, so fair enough.

BTW, with the head to head and the FBS win I think the committee will give the nod to you guys. Hope to see ya in Missoula if the pairings work out.

[asumike83]

I agree with you -- FBS losses won't be held against potential at-large teams. Never said or implied differently.

The idea that team A, 7-4 with 4 losses to full-scholarship FCS teams and team B, 7-4 with 3 losses to full-scholarship FCS teams and 1 loss to an FBS team, could be judged differently based only on the overall record and the FCS/FBS status of the losses is preposterous! There are too many other factors that will go into the evaluation.

You stated word for word "FBS losses are equal to FCS losses against full (or high) scholarship FCS teams". Unless you are implying that losses to FCS teams are also not counted against you when playoff selections are made, you implied that FBS losses are. Otherwise, how are the losses equal?

Winning 7 of 10 games against FCS competition is better than winning 7 out of 11. I'm not sure why that is preposterous. It is easier to get to 7 wins when you don't have to face a team with 22 more scholarship players. Therefore, getting to 7 wins even with an FBS team on the schedule is more impressive.

[steelbison]

That's exactly what I'm doing. Wasn't that apparent from the title and from my first post? I think I said that we were pretty much even, and that it would be difficult to determine between the two, and that this could be a deciding factor. To me that sounds like I'm making a pretty obvious excuse as to why we may not get in when it boils down to 2 teams, with the same records, with us holding the tie breaker, and an FBS win. Sorry it took you so long to figure it out. I wasn't trying to hide anything. I thought it was pretty self-explanatory.


I hope you both get in. But here's something to think about. NDSU traveled to ISU-blue and won easily. That was there "superbowl" That same week YSU loses in the last seconds to UNI at UNI. Then YSU goes to NDSU and wins.

Looking at it that way late in the season wouldn't YSU have the advantage? I think so.

Again, I think both teams are deserving. But it may come down to one or the other.

[ysubigred]

I hope you both get in. But here's something to think about. NDSU traveled to ISU-blue and won easily. That was there "superbowl" That same week YSU loses in the last seconds to UNI at UNI. Then YSU goes to NDSU and wins.

Looking at it that way late in the season wouldn't YSU have the advantage? I think so.

Again, I think both teams are deserving. But it may come down to one or the other.

The current YSU team is not the same team that traveled to Terre Haute. Since the SDSU game there's been some changes both in personnel and attitudes. All those freshmen and Soph's grew up some. Indy State is my second favorite team in the valley. Would love to see us both in xbeerchugx

[Daved]

We also know that one of YSUs losses in every year since 2001 was to UNI. Maybe we should just let them schedule 12 games every year. Seems kind of unfair. :DHope to see you at next years game when we finally end that streak!:D